Cheating With Secret Signs

[tommyc]

Yes i have to agree with Jan and Hugh, if you got the source of this rumour of "illegalitys" then it is your duty to put it the public domain.

Its no good making these unfound allegations unless you are ready to do the right thing. So spit it out Alex and show good example.!!

[Lindus Edwards]

With that opinion I thoroughly concur Tommy. This serious matter cannot be left hanging in the air and must be clarified as a matter of urgency.

[Martin Fierz]

Aloha!

I don't think I agree with anything at all written about computer programs in this thread

Jim, I wonder: what kind of computer and what kind of program are you using? Cake Manchester with 8pc db on my Core Duo laptop says:

depth 1/4/1.8 time 0.00s value=10 nodes 23 2kN/s db 0% pv 11-16 20x11
depth 3/9/4.2 time 0.00s value=20 nodes 191 19kN/s db 0% pv 11-16 20x11 7x16 18-15 14-18 23x 7
depth 5/14/5.8 time 0.00s value=18 nodes 432 43kN/s db 0% pv 11-16 20x11 7x16 18-15 14-18 23x 7 2x18 22x15
depth 7/14/7.8 time 0.00s value=12 nodes 1015 101kN/s db 0% pv 11-16 20x11 7x16 18-15 16-20 15-11 20-24 11- 8
depth 9/20/11.0 time 0.00s value=6 nodes 4247 424kN/s db 96% pv 9-13 18x 9 5x14 22-18 13-17 18x 9 6x13 21x14
depth 11/22/12.9 time 0.01s value=12 nodes 10737 429kN/s db 99% pv 9-13 18x 9 5x14 30-26 14-17 21x14 10x17 25-21
depth 13/24/15.2 time 0.03s value=10 nodes 27457 669kN/s db 98% pv 9-13 18x 9 5x14 30-26 14-17 21x14 10x17 25-21
depth 15/27/16.9 time 0.05s value=8 nodes 57198 1021kN/s db 98% pv 9-13 18x 9 5x14 30-26 11-15 20-16 15x24 28x19
depth 17/29/18.6 time 0.09s value=12 nodes 118465 1150kN/s db 98% pv 9-13 18x 9 5x14 30-26 11-15 19-16 12x19 23x16
depth 19/32/20.8 time 0.33s value=16 nodes 435740 1289kN/s db 91% pv 11-16 20x11 7x16 18-15 16-20 15-11 20-24 22-17
depth 21/36/22.6 time 0.78s value=88 nodes 1009946 1276kN/s db 93% pv 9-13 18x 9 5x14 30-26 11-15 19-16 12x19 23x16
depth 23/39/23.7 time 1.13s value=100 nodes 1431467 1261kN/s db 93% pv 9-13 18x 9 5x14 22-18 13-17 18x 9 6x13 21x14
depth 25/39/25.7 time 1.69s value=102 nodes 2075467 1223kN/s db 91% pv 9-13 18x 9 5x14 30-26 11-15 19-16 12x19 23x16
depth 27/42/27.5 time 2.81s value=56 nodes 3413095 1209kN/s db 87% pv 9-13 18x 9 5x14 30-26 11-15 19-16 12x19 23x16
depth 29/46/30.7 time 10.81s value=132 nodes 11079422 1023kN/s db 67% pv 9-13 18x 9 5x14 30-26 11-15 19-16 12x19 23x16
depth 31/49/34.2 time 40.78s value=174 nodes 33001361 809kN/s db 52% pv 9-13 18x 9 5x14 30-26 11-15 19-16 12x19 23x16
depth 33/50/33.9 time 58.88s value=196 nodes 47180344 801kN/s db 50% pv 9-13 18x 9 5x14 22-18 13-17 18x 9 6x13 21x14
depth 35/51/35.2 time 83.13s value=204 nodes 68034088 818kN/s db 51% pv 9-13 18x 9 5x14 22-18 13-17 18x 9 6x13 21x14

and so takes only seconds to spot the win, depending on what you want to allow as "spotting the win".

as for 27-24 being a loser in this position:
W:W32,31,30,27,25,23,22,21,19,18:B16,14,12,10,9,8,7,6,5,2.
my opening book has 32-28 as a draw - and left to its own devices, Cake never even thinks about playing 27-24 after ply 3:


depth 1/3/1.0 time 0.00s value=14 nodes 15 1kN/s db 0% pv 21-17 14x21
depth 3/19/6.7 time 0.00s value=0 nodes 832 83kN/s db 75% pv 27-24 16-20 31-27 8-11
depth 5/19/7.5 time 0.00s value=0 nodes 2088 208kN/s db 86% pv 32-28 8-11 30-26 16-20 18-15 11x18 22x15 14-18
depth 7/19/9.2 time 0.00s value=0 nodes 4896 489kN/s db 90% pv 32-28 8-11 30-26 16-20 18-15 11x18 22x15 14-18
depth 9/23/10.2 time 0.00s value=-2 nodes 11634 1163kN/s db 90% pv 32-28 8-11 30-26 16-20 18-15 11x18 22x15 14-17
depth 11/25/12.3 time 0.02s value=-12 nodes 30611 1177kN/s db 83% pv 31-26 8-11 18-15 11x18 22x15 16-20 26-22 14-18
depth 13/26/15.0 time 0.05s value=-2 nodes 85799 1505kN/s db 92% pv 31-26 8-11 18-15 11x18 22x15 16-20 26-22 14-18
depth 15/29/16.5 time 0.13s value=-4 nodes 219592 1626kN/s db 97% pv 32-28 8-11 30-26 9-13 18x 9 5x14 22-18 13-17
depth 17/32/18.4 time 0.28s value=-8 nodes 489074 1674kN/s db 96% pv 31-26 8-11 19-15 10x19 21-17 14x21 18-14 9x18
depth 19/34/20.0 time 0.72s value=0 nodes 1190011 1632kN/s db 92% pv 31-26 16-20 18-15 9-13 22-18 5- 9 25-22 7-11
depth 21/35/22.0 time 1.77s value=2 nodes 2826108 1591kN/s db 94% pv 31-26 7-11 27-24 16-20 22-17 20x27 19-15 10x19
depth 23/37/23.9 time 4.20s value=0 nodes 6412235 1521kN/s db 93% pv 31-26 7-11 27-24 16-20 22-17 20x27 19-15 10x19
depth 25/41/26.0 time 9.33s value=0 nodes 13583930 1454kN/s db 92% pv 31-26 7-11 27-24 16-20 22-17 20x27 19-15 10x19
depth 27/42/27.9 time 21.69s value=0 nodes 29886856 1377kN/s db 89% pv 31-26 7-11 27-24 16-20 22-17 20x27 19-15 10x19
depth 29/43/30.0 time 58.44s value=0 nodes 76750118 1313kN/s db 86% pv 31-26 7-11 27-24 16-20 22-17 20x27 19-15 10x19

With regard to the doctor openings: in these, Cake typically takes a few (meaning something like 1-10) minutes to find that it has to part with its material. Of course, it doesn't do so with a draw score - but then again, to expect a program to see a draw score within minutes just after 2 or 3 moves is a bit much!

cheers
Martin

[tommyc]

Wat are yu on abt MF.........and who is Jim? GRRRRRRRRRRR

[Lindus Edwards]

Alex Moiseyev wrote:


"Jan, this means - Intentional lost when one player agrees to lose the game / round to another player in order to give the second player more points and chance to win 1st / 2nd / 3rd place etc.

This also can be done in order to help someone to achieve the norm of master / grandmaster / etc

Sometimes the scheme of cheating is more complicated and more than two players involve: "A' lose "B" and "B lose "C".

Perhaps the people who did this thought that they are smart enough or it was never done before and nobody will ever know. Unfortunately - nothing new under the sun and all this *** is well known for many decades to many people.

Alex"

These allegations are outrageous and have no substance whatsoever. I personally know most of the contestants who played in Prague and Stonehaven. There is no way that any one of them would cheat in the fashion described by Alex Moiseyev.

[Mr. Checkers]

Meow!!, Meow!!. Alex lets look at it this way--they will need a very large mouse trap to entrap you with a mere war of words. "Inky"

[Lindus Edwards]

.

[Mr. Checkers]

Lindus, Ms. Becky is on a 9 months leave of absense. As far as cheating goes I feel that all of you are cheating us out of the positive contributions that you could be making if you were not involved with all of these needless verbal assaults on each other--which are without doubt counter-productive in helping us reach the positive goals that we all have worked hard to acheive and strive for in checkers and draughts. "Inky"

[Lindus Edwards]

I am completely perplexed by your statement. I have not made any verbal assaults upon anybody. All I am trying to do here is exonerate my friends from the allegations of cheating made by Alex. Much as I appreciate your reply I respectfully ask Alex to answer for himself. This is a serious matter after all and I therefore request a serious response from him and him alone.

[Mr. Checkers]

Lindus I can assure you that Alex will never be at a loss for exchanging words with anyone--it is just not his nature. Inturn I could ask you to allow Jan to speak for herself here on the ACF Forum, which I know that she is very capable of doing. And if you reread my posting above it says nothing about any one individual verbally assaulting another. What it does say is that words are being exchanged needlessly that are harmful (and certainly not necessary) and that our efforts should be channeled into more positive areas of checkers/draughts. "Inky"

[Lindus Edwards]

[Mr. Checkers]

Please come bearing gifts--at catnip mouse would be nice. "Inky"

[Alex_Moiseyev]

I respectfully ask Alex to answer for himself. This is a serious matter

Lindus,

ohhh ... I made a tons of posts about this, I am trying to grab attention of people, I am trying to generate a zero tolerance atmosphere on this matter, and what we have at the end ?

Childish conversation ... who did, when did, what did ?

Some of your friends who played in Prague told me privately, that they know what I am talking about.

Lindus, I see a very serious problem now, when you try in public domain to get an exact names from me. It's always not an easy task to do and provide a clear evidents. However this shouldn't stop us to talk about this.

Your attempt to get an exact names from me may stop other people in future saying anything. This is a trully danger thing and it can make a cheaters life much easy.

Alex
============================================

I am still waiting from WCDF about my motion regards sanctions.

[Lindus Edwards]

[Mr. Checkers]

What is this website coming to? A guy takes a minute out to have a nice cat nap (which he truly deserves) and he ends up having de-ja-vu feelings about the behavior that was once acceptable on a now defuncted website finding its way onto this fine AFC Forum. In the good old days this kind of thing would have been settled in the back alley. "Inky"