Moiseyev-Borghetti 3-Move Championship Match

[tommyc]

by George Hay on Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:39 pm

Tommy, thank you for the Game 3 analysis! --George Hay

Your welcome George,glad to be of help anytime.!!

[George Hay]

Tommy, I played your 7-10 for Game 3 on CheckerBoard for move 14 and then move 15. What a difference waiting a move makes! It is a razor's edge between draw and loss!
--George Hay

[tommyc]

Yes its a tuff game George, the decisions are paper thin.That particular move was a toss-up and then yu have to see to the "end of the line" as its such a critical draw from there.

[adamjohnson]

Adam you are quite correct,there is no fun it,its so intense and tho not physical you need to be fit mind and body. And thats just when you get there; to get there its at least 10 years of study and self denial of other fun things you would rather do.I can see you play for fun and if thats what you want from the game fair play to you.It is a nice hobby and i know loads of people who play for the same reason.When i tried to get some of these to take it up seriously because they were good enough i soon learned they were happy just having fun with it,a hobby.I hope you enjoy it and that it fulfills you,that is what 99.9% of players want from it..........the rest can still dream the dream?

I totally agree with everything you said, i like a bit competition myself. I used to play all the top online players an enjoyed the competition, i just think it goes too far with 4 hours a game. I think the games should be quicker so its more enjoyable for everyone involved, i used to like blitz games but i realize they have no place in real tounrnaments.

But surely 30 minute's a game would be fine ? thats what most of the offline players used to play online. And i think they found that comfortable and enjoyable, maybe im totally wrong i don't know. But i think the players playing would find it more enjoyable and not so much of a chore.

[tommyc]

Well because its a WCM its longer i guess,yu see the rules are like 24moves each in the 1st hour that reaches yur time control,any less and yu lose on the clock;
Then i think its 12 moves each in the 1/2 hour hereafter for WCM matches.Some games take longer than others.

But there are other formats Adam ; like yu can have 1 hour or mb 1hour 15 mins for TWO games in some local Tys.We play each Mon night for six nights so we can have as much time as we wish .........say start at 9 pm finish at 12 pm for TWO games per night.Most game s are over long before the time control.So yu see there are different ways of doing it.

[Palomino]

I want to join George in thanking you Tommy for the game 3 analysis. I was told by a player that several watching the game agreed Alex could have drawn the game from the point where he resigned. I couldn't see it and I'm sure Alex was looking ahead several moves and he doesn't miss much.

"Pal"

[Chexhero]

Adam, I think it depends on the level of patience someone has as well as love for the game in being able to enjoy a long game of checkers. While you may love the game, patience is probably what you lack. I never had great patience either and just wanted to move, but I practiced patience during my games, so I could do better. For me that was the only option because I wanted to push myself to a higher level and one day do well in tournaments. I see for you, you don't want to do that and just play for fun, and that by all means is totally acceptable.

[Danny_Alvarez]

I totally agree with everything you said, i like a bit competition myself. I used to play all the top online players an enjoyed the competition, i just think it goes too far with 4 hours a game. I think the games should be quicker so its more enjoyable for everyone involved, i used to like blitz games but i realize they have no place in real tounrnaments.

But surely 30 minute's a game would be fine ? thats what most of the offline players used to play online. And i think they found that comfortable and enjoyable, maybe im totally wrong i don't know. But i think the players playing would find it more enjoyable and not so much of a chore.

Dear Adam: you are not right or wrong..... taste is personal and as such it cannot be right or wrong. you prefer shorter games and that is ok. world championships are played on a long timer and that is also simultaneously ok.
I have personally never experienced a 4 hour game... i don't take my games that seriously either (yet, hope is the last thing we lose) but i was enthralled by watching the games live (thanks ACF exec + Doctor to be John Acker, can we ever thank you enough mate? ) .... and yes b4 you correct me i did fall asleep 3 different nights , but at 4 am and having stayed up all night watching it.

We need to have a more inclusive point of view. live and let live. it is ok to play checkers just as a hobby, it is also ok to treat it more seriously neither side needs to be ridiculed or derided for their option.

cheers and let's hope we find more hobby players out there to join our ranks and also some more slow pokers too

Danny "in my mind i play at 24 moves per hour " Alvarez

[n1ck]

From what I've noticed in my face-2-face play against Master/Grandmaster level players (going to use GAYP as example from this past national)

Alex Moiseyev (Red) vs. Nick Addante (White)

Alex spent about 10-15 minutes before making his first move. He has played me GAYP many times online, and can get a good jist of what I am familiar with and unfamiliar with, but he cannot guarantee for sure this is same as my offline play. I believe he ran across in his head all of the lines we've played in the past, thinking which he felt comfortable playing that had scope for wins but would be relatively uncomplicated game for opening game of national tournament.

Alex then spent another 10 minutes on his second move of the game, after I instantly made my 2 move restriction selection. I believe he debated which lines he could choose from that had the most scope and potential for strong and early cross-board play, and accurately chose a promising selection.

Forced moves-Forced Moves.... (relatively instant)

To my surprise, Alex led into a line that I didn't believe had any scope to it at all, as soon as he made his move, I knew I was gauranteed a draw out of the match. It only took him about a minute to make the move, possibly considering the weakness of his other choices with scope versus the strength of his move and lack of scope/potential.

I responded with an off-book move, which I knew the perfect variation draw according to my program. I felt the endgame from my experience against programs and humans on this variation, would simplify and possibly strengthen my position at the end, just in case Mr. Moiseyev wanted to get greedy for a non-existant win latter in the match.

Unfortunately for me, I played into a line Alex had recently experimented with and had much success against a formidable opponent...his next move was very quick...and I was not expecting it

Now it was my clock that was running, because I was "across the board" I considered 3 options, all in the correct order of their relative strengths. The strongest move was just a move I cannot make, its not my style, and I know its directly up alex's alley in terms of position. So I considered the second strongest move, which was what his formidable opponent used to defend against him a week prior. I compared it with the third strongest choice, and decided, the third strongest choice is weak, but I know what Alex's next couple moves SHOULD be, and I am very pleased with the position this forms. A very quirky game, with potential of win for either side if just 1 mishap. 15-20 minutes later I moved

Alex spent about 15 more minutes on his next move. Probably a little out of shock, not liking the move I was hoping to force him to make, and considering his other options. When he finally spotted the promise in a different move, I believe he considered the outcome, very strong for him if I fell into his potential trap, but not quite strong enough to win. Would Nick be able to choose effectively with limited options? He decided to go for it, I mean its first game of the tournament, although he would like to get wins off me, it is just a warm-up type round. Alex made what appeard to me as a waiting move, I wasn't even aware, of what may be in store

So I looked for about 5 minutes, and decided I cant see anything, so I'm going to make a waiting move too, let's see what he does....

Instantaneously I'm in a 4 for 4 shot, and running for my life, but I do have a beautiful little draw available

Smoke Break while my clock is running after the smoke clears from the shot (15 minutes)

The rest of the game, I spent a ton of time trying to narrow the ending down in my mind, there is only 1 draw here, but there appears to be so many, what is the trick to each of these attractive looking moves. I managed to analyze correctly to all of alex's star moves in my weak position, both of our clocks nearing the 1 hour mark (a 2 hour game)

Alex I believe, as his moves were easy, huge advantage, probably saw my draw path very quickly, and was trying to figure out how to lead me astray from that path, as I was following it correctly. But he was also considering, any move he makes that is off his target, may give me unwanted life for a stronger endgame. This is why I believe he spent much time. However, it could all be psychological too, like calling a timeout before a field goal at the end of the game.

I noticed my clock had about 3 minutes on it, and I had to make a couple more moves to meet my restriction.

The first move I considered, and really really wanted to do, was my super star draw move that would narrow the game down so quickly, he'd probably just offer a draw after I made it, wouldn't even need time to think and get to my 30 move mark easily. Well I saw the draw to it, but I didn't quite see if Alex had other choices, and time was running out. Since I couldnt calculate fast enough to knwo the outcome of that star move, I made a move that I only half calculated, seemed it drew too even tho it looked like it had the possibility to lose very easily. I figured egh maybe thats the trap, he wants me to be scared of this move that looks like it loses, but it really draws. I did a quick calculation, overlooking a double exposure, and of course as soon as I made that wrong move and I saw alex's response...I knew it was over

:[ RW

[Ingo_Zachos]

Adam,

a chess game may also last four hours, in many cases they last even 5 or more hours.
It is a tournament game, not a blitz or bullet game.

Endgames, strategical planning and defense play are ususally much better in tournament games, though you make mistakes due to exhaustion (both physically and mentally) and the nerve strain (tic tac, tic tac, tic tac....) from time to time, but after a day of working I make a lof of mistakes due to exhaustion at the internet blitz as well.

BTW:
you dont need to play fast on the internet. You can play games with 2 hours time limit, or with 3-5 minutes for each move.
Don't blame those who like long and deep games, but give it a try!

Greetinx from rainy Dortmund,

Ingo Zachos

[Ingo_Zachos]

Dear checker/draughts friends,

to make it easier to have a productive discussion of each single game,

I have opened up a topic for each one in the "games" section.
From time to time I will check the remarks that have been made, and include them in the "notes" to the given game, which wil always be the 1st post in the topic.

I hope this way we can follow the game more easily and structured.


Greetinx from sunny Dortmund,

Ingo Zachos

[Bernard Coll]

It is nice to see that the younger viewers are starting to realise that checkers/draughts has been around for centuries, LONG before the internet and their self gratifying outlook that their programme supplied their answers! To be a really succesful player, which I admit not to be, and countless others also, one has firstly to be gifted with foresight and be prepared for years of hard endeavour. Willie Ryan, Samuel Gonotsky, Newell Banks, Gingberg etc., established themselves as the big guns in the 2-move era. Following this we had the unforgetable BIG 3 from the golden era, Walter Hellman, Asa Long and Marion Tinsley who pioneered the now universally acknowledged footpaths in 3-move checkers. These foregone players did not have computers and programmes enabling themselves to capitalise on "dead mens'brains". Todays players are standing on their shoulders.

[tommyc]

There was no win for white in game 24 [Borghetti] altho white did have an advantage but not enough to win.

In game 23 Borghettis poor 1015 waiter is the reason he lost that game....when 1-6 was best to draw. Later the 1620 put the tin hat on it for sure.

So its a 4-2 lead for the Champion..........with a possible 16 games left.

[Danny_Alvarez]

Time is starting to run out for Miki.

[Danny_Alvarez]

With the score at 6-3 ..... i think not even the most optimistic of Miki's supporters think that the result can be altered now....
Maybe i am too early , but i would like to congratulate Alex on a succesful title defense.

Danny Alvarez