Willie Ryan's View On Gonotsky & Tinsley

[Richard Pask]

Ryan's opinion of Gonotsky is well documented - it could hardly be higher - and he clearly had the greatest respect for MFT. Given his knowledge of both players, it would be interesting to know whether he ever compared the two in print: Ryan was noted for his lengthy letters, so it's possible such a comparison may have been made.

The Gonotsky-Lieber match was heavily criticised by DEO, so it comes as something of a surprise when you read the match book to discover that many of the games were extremely hard-fought, and that the match had its share of innovations. (RLF was kind enough to send me two Gonotsky letters regarding this match, complete with the original envelopes.)

Although MFT defeated Banks 3-0 & 37 draws in their 1952 match, he was in one definite loss, and one wonders how a 40-game Gonotsky-Tinsley match would have turned out. 40 draws?

Perhaps they've already played one.

[George Hay]

My take on this is a Gonotsky-Tinsley forty game match would be all draws with a 43 opening two-move restriction.
However, with a 47 opening two-move restriction, it would be interesting, and not all games would be draws!
I was shocked to find out that the two-move restriction left out four openings that do not lead to an outright loss of a man.
There are 49 possible opening moves, but 9-14 21-17 and 10-14 21-17 loose a man from the get go. So that leaves 47
two-move openings. However, four more openings were typically banned as being one-sided. Those were 9-14 23-18,
10-14 23-18, 11-16 23-19, and 12-16 23-19. Those four openings are incorporated in the modern 156 three-move restriction.
Well, I can't even imagine the fireworks in a forty game, 156 three-move restriction, Gonotsky-Tinsley match!

[liam stephens]

Hi George,

12-16, 23-19 is still barred.

Regards - Liam.

[George Hay]

Liam, thank you for the correction. Opening 171 (of 174) 12-16 23-19 16-23 is still banned, the only three-move opening that incorporates 12-16 23-19....Newell Banks was 65 when he faced a 25 year old Marion Tinsley in the two-move WCM, a daunting task at any age!
--George Hay

[Alex_Moiseyev]

and one wonders how a 40-game Gonotsky-Tinsley match would have turned out. 40 draws?

Richard, quite inaccurate question. The history doesn't like the word "IF"

What year they suppose to play this match - 1942, 1952, 1962, 1972 ? Or maybe you want to take Gonotsky from 1927, put him into time machine and bring to 1952 or 1992 ? I can't compare them scientifically and I don't think anyone can do this without gambling and speculations.

And by the way - what style they suppose to play: 2-moves or 3-moves ?

Sam was very unhealthy man and it is hard for me to beleive he can live 20-30 more years and doing well.

Regarding his match with Lieber my position is extremely close to DEO criticism.

Sincerely,

Alex Moiseyev

[Danny_Alvarez]

Alex, i am not a bif fan of Hypotheticals .... "what if" scenarios....

on the upside , nobody can be wrong in hypotheticals especially the ones where the people in question are not with us anymore...

despite my dislike of hypotheticals i did enjoy Mr Pask's post.... i just felt i had not much to add to the conversation as i am not knowleadgeable enough on Mr Gonotsky's play .

cheers
Danny "What would happen if we had world peace" Alvarez

[George Hay]

"I left that young whipper-snapper, baffled, bewildered, and beaten.!"

Willie Ryan,1946

[Richard Pask]

Yes, of course, comparisons between players of different eras will always be flawed, irrespective of the sport/mind sport, but it's nonetheless an enjoyable exercise!

The real point of my post was whether Ryan himself had ever made a direct comparison between the two greats in print (especially in a letter, of which he wrote many:) he had after all played them both, which is a lot better than nothing.

What is beyond dispute is that both players were true geniuses at the game, and will always be held in the highest possible esteem.

[George Hay]

Tinsley took the checker world by storm in 1946 and never looked back! Who was considered the greatest players ever before Tinsley (and before 1946)?
One answer is in Let's Play Checkers from 1940 by Ken Grover and Tom Wiswell. In the Problem Section, edited by Wiswell on Page 126 he writes:

While the late Samuel Gonotsky did not publish many problems in his brief and brilliant career, the few that he did contribute to various columns and magazines were ample proof of his wonderful ability. In our opinion the title of the World’s greatest player belonged to either Richard Jordan or Gonotsky. He was a former American Champion and seemed headed for the World’s Title when he died in 1929, still in his early twenties. His match with M. Lieber of Detroit (forty games, all drawn) is one of the greatest contests in checker history.

This was written when Asa Long was the current (and First) Three-Move World Champion!

What was Gonotsky vs Lieber? It was a famous 40 Game match using Two-Move Restriction in 1928. The result was a tie match of 40 draws (0-0-40).
No, it was not a Court Case, but the jury was out on Two-Move Restriction, as chronicled by the OMOCH Timeline:

JAN. STAKE MATCH.
SAM GONOTSKY VS. MIKE LIEBER 0-0-40 DRAWS at LONG ISLAND, N.Y.
THIS 40 GAME STRUGGLE MARKED MIKE LIEBER AS ONE OF THE GREATEST PLAYERS OF THE ERA. IT WAS ALSO A COFFIN NAIL FOR THE TWO MOVE RESTRICTION, AND HASTENED THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE THREE MOVE RESTRICTION, IN AN EFFORT TO PREVENT DRAWN GAMES BETWEEN MASTER PLAYERS.

[champion374]

good checker literature guys.

[neilwenberg]

Marion Tinsley was and is the greatest checker player to ever exist on this earth. No mortal man will ever match Tinsley for checker play!!