Lots of ACF players who've played in real life tournaments claim that checkers on the Internet is a world a part from checkers played in real life.
I'm sure a lot of people don't play their best on the Internet because it doesn't matter much but a checkerboard is a checkerboard, it's not like checkers play in real life tournaments are played under say Pool checkers rule or something like that. It is still the same English checkers rule so I'm sure someone's Internet checkers skills would transfer over at least somewhat. I see what some of you guys are saying I mean for example in one of M., Alex's game with Ryan Pronk on kurnik in which he could easily draw but somehow choose to play a loss which I'm sure he won't do in a real life tournament. He probably was just trying to take it easy and making all kinds of risks just to give his lesser opponents a chance since kurnik checkers doesn't matter as far as real life checkers status is concerned.
However I don't think someone who plays in real checker tournaments who loses to a Internet checker player consistently and rarely able to score a win himself, would automatically be the favorite to win in a real life setting against that particular Internet opponent. I know in Internet one minute blitz games I have loss against people who simply have a super fast Internet connection that either wins on time or forces me to move much faster than him and lose by mistakes that would have never happened had there been no time advantage for him. But this is not what I am talking about, I am talking about Internet games that are timed at least at 2/2 or 5/0. On the other hand, I have played 20/0 games with people that takes a long time to make their moves while I only took a few seconds on my moves using my positional judgement with not much thinking and still win. So unless you're at the Master/Grandmaster level, I don't think more time to think will help you much. In other words, I would put my money on the Internet checkers player who has proven that he can consistently overwhelm a certain real life checker player under reasonable time control (2/2, 5/2 etc.).
Is it really that much of a world apart?
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Ryan Pronk
Re: Is it really that much of a world apart?
Armlock wrote:In other words, I would put my money on the Internet checkers player who has proven that he can consistently overwhelm a certain real life checker player under reasonable time control (2/2, 5/2 etc.).
Those time controls don't sound reasonable to me. In the U.S. Nationals, we played 26 moves in 1 hour, adding more time after we reached the 26 move mark. That is a world of a difference compared to 2/2. I have played online for the past 6 years, and I don't know any "internet" player that will think on one move for 20-30 minutes. Thinking that long for one move is a common occurrence at tournaments. There is a lot more to this argument, but I won't go any further.
--Ryan
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bazkitcase5
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:35 pm
- What do you like about checkers?: I love strategy games and checkers fits the bill for a great strategy game, that requires logic and problem solving skills.
- Location: Columbus, MS
Re: Is it really that much of a world apart?
its rather difficult to say anything that will convince you otherwise seeing how you haven't been to a tournament
your right to a point - many of the better internet players would easily win minors, even moving fast, and would probably do well in majors depending on who shows up
however, if your wanting to compare internet play to the masters division, then it is an entirely different thing
your right to a point - many of the better internet players would easily win minors, even moving fast, and would probably do well in majors depending on who shows up
however, if your wanting to compare internet play to the masters division, then it is an entirely different thing
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AKA
Re: Is it really that much of a world apart?
I don't think internet players can reach a high masters level by just playing online.
Online players can reach high majors/low masters level after many many years of playing - they will need experience in offline tournament play to help prepare themselves to try to compete in the masters level.
There are only 1-2 internet players with zero offline experience who would do OK (finish middle of the pack) in the masters. Though there are 20-30 players who would do very well in the majors.
Point is...you can only reach a certain level by just playing online - but playing online can help you reach this level faster than any other method.
Online players can reach high majors/low masters level after many many years of playing - they will need experience in offline tournament play to help prepare themselves to try to compete in the masters level.
There are only 1-2 internet players with zero offline experience who would do OK (finish middle of the pack) in the masters. Though there are 20-30 players who would do very well in the majors.
Point is...you can only reach a certain level by just playing online - but playing online can help you reach this level faster than any other method.
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Ingo_Zachos
- Posts: 1286
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- Contact:
Re: Is it really that much of a world apart?
I have already said that internet play, like mailplay, requires different skills then tournament play. I can only speak from my experiences as chess coach, but I believe that there is not much difference in these aspect in the two sister games.
1.You have to cope with noise, room temperature, etc. that r equal for all.
That alone leads to very serious blunders, that the player does not commit on the internet, as he loses concentration very quickly.
Adding to that is the fact that you have to concentrate for a long duration, which requires more then the usual "commercial break concentration time" that is typically for internet pace. I believe this habit is the reason why most young internet players prefer rapid games, but they r a bad practice for competition.
2. Planning is different from that kind of "planning" you do in internet games.
Internet games r rapid games, so the planning is usually done very carelessly.
You do not develop long plans, and that is a MUST in master practice.
Some internet players never develop that skill, so they stay 400 elo points or more below their internet rating.
3. There r referees and spectators.
The competitive situation is more tense, as you look at the scoreboard from round to round, and all the players r speculating about the way the tournament will proceed at the top boards, and THIS is completely different to online play (also chatting during the games is not allowed in tournaments!), also causing players to forget memorized lines, to blunder or simply to forget to push the clock buttom or to write down the moves as required, and they end up confused, penalized by the referee and completely desillusionated in the worst case....
4. Your opponents will be prepared better!
Especially in chess, that is GAYP entirely, the ambitious players have notebooks with all published games you played.
They will find the weak spots in yor opening repertoire, or drive you to positions that r not bad objectively, but do not suit your style, and that they prepared at home, but you never played before.
That is why you r forced to do it likewise, provided you have got the time.
If not, you r giving odds against your opponents.
At the GAYP Qualifier most players were definetely better prepared then me, but even I knew that there was a certain likelihood that Keder would play the Single Corner, or Morrison the Cross, and I was prepared, but obviously Baghtiyar Durdyev was better prepared aginst me as was Michael Holmes, who deviated from the trunk Cross line with the early 10-14, something I never played or analyzed before, and only went over quickly in Lees' guide or BDP.
He easily got me and he easliy refuted my 7-11 in the Old Fourteenth, which I played (after having used it with good results in online play), because I was afraid of his preparation.
5. Tournament tactics
This is something you can only understand if you ever played a tournament.
If you have a goal, say not finishing last, you do not play as if you want to win the event, and sometimes you take a draw to save time and power to reach your final goal.
And the schedule of the tournament and the possile draw for the next round r also important factors in your "war plan".
Sometimes you play two quick draws against an oppponent in a line you both know well (and you know you both know it well!), because you want a break to save energy for the next round.
This is something you don't do in internet games, most likely not even at internet tournaments, but it is a telling factor in tournaments.
At my last two days in Prague I knew I could make 50 percent, if I win at least one game and drew the others.
And my plan of drawing the moring session, then getting a tired opponent from the lower half and put pressure on him worked out well.
I nearly won the first game, and won the second in the endgame.
These kind of play is typically for tournaments.
On the other hand, if you need two draws, do not try to play for more.
Jim Morrison played the main variation of the Cross against me, altough I hoped he would have played the 22-17 line he played in an earlier round against Dennis Pawlek, in order to avoid a draw.
I would have been prepared for that, but he took the main line with 24-20, and with my "battle plan" now disturbed, I agreed to a draw.
He also played the 10-14 main line in the Cross to avoid any complication I might looked for, as I knew he also played the 9-14 lines before with Black to try to score a win, but be was determined to play two draws on that day, and if I had been a less expirienced player, I might have tried for "something new" in these well-known drawn lines, and overplayed my cards.
My advice:
Internet play gives good evidence if a player has talent in tactical situations, and a good Internet player is not likely to be wiped away from the board easily, but he should not expect to finish right there where other players that he plays even against in internet play end up, if these players were tournament players before.
And, most likely, he will lose to some player that he scored 60-70 percent on the net.
real elo= internet elo -300 is usually a good formula in chess, for a "complete" Internet player that enters a real tournament.
But it is also true, that a good Internet player has better chances to impove quickly then a tournament player at the same level, but usually it takes three to four years to reach the same level as you had "on the web".
And some never reach that level, as their abilities seem to fit only for internet play.
Try it, and prove me wrong, as you might be the exception to the rule!
Greetinx from Dortmund, Germany
Ingo Zachos
1.You have to cope with noise, room temperature, etc. that r equal for all.
That alone leads to very serious blunders, that the player does not commit on the internet, as he loses concentration very quickly.
Adding to that is the fact that you have to concentrate for a long duration, which requires more then the usual "commercial break concentration time" that is typically for internet pace. I believe this habit is the reason why most young internet players prefer rapid games, but they r a bad practice for competition.
2. Planning is different from that kind of "planning" you do in internet games.
Internet games r rapid games, so the planning is usually done very carelessly.
You do not develop long plans, and that is a MUST in master practice.
Some internet players never develop that skill, so they stay 400 elo points or more below their internet rating.
3. There r referees and spectators.
The competitive situation is more tense, as you look at the scoreboard from round to round, and all the players r speculating about the way the tournament will proceed at the top boards, and THIS is completely different to online play (also chatting during the games is not allowed in tournaments!), also causing players to forget memorized lines, to blunder or simply to forget to push the clock buttom or to write down the moves as required, and they end up confused, penalized by the referee and completely desillusionated in the worst case....
4. Your opponents will be prepared better!
Especially in chess, that is GAYP entirely, the ambitious players have notebooks with all published games you played.
They will find the weak spots in yor opening repertoire, or drive you to positions that r not bad objectively, but do not suit your style, and that they prepared at home, but you never played before.
That is why you r forced to do it likewise, provided you have got the time.
If not, you r giving odds against your opponents.
At the GAYP Qualifier most players were definetely better prepared then me, but even I knew that there was a certain likelihood that Keder would play the Single Corner, or Morrison the Cross, and I was prepared, but obviously Baghtiyar Durdyev was better prepared aginst me as was Michael Holmes, who deviated from the trunk Cross line with the early 10-14, something I never played or analyzed before, and only went over quickly in Lees' guide or BDP.
He easily got me and he easliy refuted my 7-11 in the Old Fourteenth, which I played (after having used it with good results in online play), because I was afraid of his preparation.
5. Tournament tactics
This is something you can only understand if you ever played a tournament.
If you have a goal, say not finishing last, you do not play as if you want to win the event, and sometimes you take a draw to save time and power to reach your final goal.
And the schedule of the tournament and the possile draw for the next round r also important factors in your "war plan".
Sometimes you play two quick draws against an oppponent in a line you both know well (and you know you both know it well!), because you want a break to save energy for the next round.
This is something you don't do in internet games, most likely not even at internet tournaments, but it is a telling factor in tournaments.
At my last two days in Prague I knew I could make 50 percent, if I win at least one game and drew the others.
And my plan of drawing the moring session, then getting a tired opponent from the lower half and put pressure on him worked out well.
I nearly won the first game, and won the second in the endgame.
These kind of play is typically for tournaments.
On the other hand, if you need two draws, do not try to play for more.
Jim Morrison played the main variation of the Cross against me, altough I hoped he would have played the 22-17 line he played in an earlier round against Dennis Pawlek, in order to avoid a draw.
I would have been prepared for that, but he took the main line with 24-20, and with my "battle plan" now disturbed, I agreed to a draw.
He also played the 10-14 main line in the Cross to avoid any complication I might looked for, as I knew he also played the 9-14 lines before with Black to try to score a win, but be was determined to play two draws on that day, and if I had been a less expirienced player, I might have tried for "something new" in these well-known drawn lines, and overplayed my cards.
My advice:
Internet play gives good evidence if a player has talent in tactical situations, and a good Internet player is not likely to be wiped away from the board easily, but he should not expect to finish right there where other players that he plays even against in internet play end up, if these players were tournament players before.
And, most likely, he will lose to some player that he scored 60-70 percent on the net.
real elo= internet elo -300 is usually a good formula in chess, for a "complete" Internet player that enters a real tournament.
But it is also true, that a good Internet player has better chances to impove quickly then a tournament player at the same level, but usually it takes three to four years to reach the same level as you had "on the web".
And some never reach that level, as their abilities seem to fit only for internet play.
Try it, and prove me wrong, as you might be the exception to the rule!
Greetinx from Dortmund, Germany
Ingo Zachos
You can rent this space for advertising, if you like!
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Alex_Moiseyev
- Posts: 4349
- Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:03 pm
- What do you like about checkers?: .....
Re: Is it really that much of a world apart?
NASA wrote:I don't think internet players can reach a high masters level by just playing online.
In general - I agree with this argument, but we must be a bit careful. We may have some very potential and talented, outstanding players who can start from Interenet going later into real life with great success. But this has nothing to do Internet. If this is a really talented player, he would get the same progress starting from real tournaments and skipping Internet play.
In this case we can't say - Internet (online) play helped him to improve.
I know very few "online only" players who might be successful a bit in Master Division on first occasion (don't lose all rounds) without prior play in real tournaments.
All arguments here referring to Clayton Nash and Clint Olsen success doen't make sense, because they both played before in Major Division (both won) and some other ty's.
This year we had two new players in the USA National 3-moves Master Division - Michael Holmes and Mike Fulkerson. Both finished below 50%, but I don't consider this as fiasco and am very confident they should do it much better after 2 years. Experience is a great and important thing and noone can stay away of it.
Respectfully,
Alex Moiseyev
I am playing checkers, not chess.
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Patrick Parker
- Posts: 959
- Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:32 pm
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the players - Location: amite, louisiana
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Re: Is it really that much of a world apart?
i am one of the players that said ...i dont play as well online....
i have beeing playing online for years umm maybe 1998 or so cant really recall ......however i enjoyed the game playing it online before but i
came to really enjoy the game once i was able to attend a tournament ....
also i had a hard time finding out things about the game online
which in tournament play have come much more easily ......
there are pressures in tournament play ....that i cant get over the internet and i cant take the game as serious over the internet ....also
im not cooking dinner while i play, watching tv, talking to my friends, et cetera.......while i am playing in a tournament ...i actually lose some distraction .......when i am in a quiet room(or somewhat quiet) and everyone is concentrating on their games......theres a difference
as to what level you can achieve......maybe that depends on your opponent
another factor and maybe it only affects me but i dont like playing people i dont know anymore ......i like to have a face to my opponent and to know them.....just a personal preference ....but it helps me try harder even online if i know one of my friends is asking me to try so they can get some practice in.........but this is mostly at kurnik ...if i want to play strangers i go to yahoo.....
i have beeing playing online for years umm maybe 1998 or so cant really recall ......however i enjoyed the game playing it online before but i
came to really enjoy the game once i was able to attend a tournament ....
also i had a hard time finding out things about the game online
which in tournament play have come much more easily ......
there are pressures in tournament play ....that i cant get over the internet and i cant take the game as serious over the internet ....also
im not cooking dinner while i play, watching tv, talking to my friends, et cetera.......while i am playing in a tournament ...i actually lose some distraction .......when i am in a quiet room(or somewhat quiet) and everyone is concentrating on their games......theres a difference
as to what level you can achieve......maybe that depends on your opponent
another factor and maybe it only affects me but i dont like playing people i dont know anymore ......i like to have a face to my opponent and to know them.....just a personal preference ....but it helps me try harder even online if i know one of my friends is asking me to try so they can get some practice in.........but this is mostly at kurnik ...if i want to play strangers i go to yahoo.....
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Roberto L Ernest
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 6:20 pm
What about turn-based Internet play?
The above contributions all seem to equate Internet play with real-time games. What about turn-based games? They are a totally different type of animal. Different from real-time Internet games and different from face-to-face tournament games. I, for one, never play real-time on the Internet, only turn-based.
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matthewkooshad
- Posts: 289
- Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:08 pm
- Location: Mississippi, USA
- Contact:
Re: Is it really that much of a world apart?
I wonder what the percent is of people who play in real tournaments of all the people who play online. 
It's shocking to me
It's shocking to me-
Patrick Parker
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Re: Is it really that much of a world apart?
i play on itsyourturn.com i hardly lose ....but i am doubt i am playing the best in the world either
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Patrick Parker
- Posts: 959
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Re: Is it really that much of a world apart?
why not drive to a tournamet in your state or a near by state?
cuz ur not really into the game ........if you live in ny,oh,cali there are plenty of players somewhere near you prolly more states than that even
but those i know of several players ......also going to a tournament should mean improving your game....thats part of the reason i drive or fly or ride....and to hang out with the other checker players
as far as the level of any of those players and whos a master
well im not a master so i dont think i can judge their strength and ill let someone else comment on that
but i also think someone can win the majors and simply not be a master level player ....especially in 3move ......for example larry pollard winning the majors.......in 3 move masters he would have a real hard time....but he wins majors....theres a huge gap.........maybe i am wrong .....any comments from the masters?...........btw i like larry and i am not putting him down
cuz ur not really into the game ........if you live in ny,oh,cali there are plenty of players somewhere near you prolly more states than that even
but those i know of several players ......also going to a tournament should mean improving your game....thats part of the reason i drive or fly or ride....and to hang out with the other checker players
as far as the level of any of those players and whos a master
well im not a master so i dont think i can judge their strength and ill let someone else comment on that
but i also think someone can win the majors and simply not be a master level player ....especially in 3move ......for example larry pollard winning the majors.......in 3 move masters he would have a real hard time....but he wins majors....theres a huge gap.........maybe i am wrong .....any comments from the masters?...........btw i like larry and i am not putting him down
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bazkitcase5
- Posts: 84
- Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:35 pm
- What do you like about checkers?: I love strategy games and checkers fits the bill for a great strategy game, that requires logic and problem solving skills.
- Location: Columbus, MS
Re: Is it really that much of a world apart?
you are right, there is a huge gap right now patrick
larry pollard and alan millhone would likely be very close in skill level if you want a comparison
jolt,
do you mean finish middle pack in masters in their first national tournament or get to middle of masters eventually? because there is a huge difference - there is also a huge difference between state tournaments and the national tournament, especially in the masters division
i know how good many of the better internet players are and believe they would do very well in tournaments - but i think your slightly out of line judging how good the masters are at nationals are without having played against them
i started out playing online timed games, and did so for a long time before i ever started attending tournaments and i became a good player in doing so, but i took the next level up when i stopped playing only timed games and started practicing slow games and learning to look ahead (steve jones was my practice partner for a long time)
the biggest difference i've noticed is learning the art of looking ahead, taking several minutes per move and figuring out the outcome
there is no doubt in my mind that the online players can do this, but my point is that they don't - they play timed games, avoiding practicing slow games - hence the reason they do well in minors and in some case majors divisions, but would likely struggle in a real masters division (atleast until they learn to slow down and think)
also, that national tournament was not steve jones' first tournament - dale also went to a local checker club and played slow games with alex moiseyev for practice (alex could tell u much more than i can)
obviously there is no way i can prove anything to you, its only the things i've noticed, being on both sides of the fence so to speak
i personally treat tournaments like a vacation - i enjoy going to them and competing with the best players and improving my skill level - yes it costs money and yes u can play checkers with good players online, but to me personally it is not the same
larry pollard and alan millhone would likely be very close in skill level if you want a comparison
jolt,
do you mean finish middle pack in masters in their first national tournament or get to middle of masters eventually? because there is a huge difference - there is also a huge difference between state tournaments and the national tournament, especially in the masters division
i know how good many of the better internet players are and believe they would do very well in tournaments - but i think your slightly out of line judging how good the masters are at nationals are without having played against them
i started out playing online timed games, and did so for a long time before i ever started attending tournaments and i became a good player in doing so, but i took the next level up when i stopped playing only timed games and started practicing slow games and learning to look ahead (steve jones was my practice partner for a long time)
the biggest difference i've noticed is learning the art of looking ahead, taking several minutes per move and figuring out the outcome
there is no doubt in my mind that the online players can do this, but my point is that they don't - they play timed games, avoiding practicing slow games - hence the reason they do well in minors and in some case majors divisions, but would likely struggle in a real masters division (atleast until they learn to slow down and think)
also, that national tournament was not steve jones' first tournament - dale also went to a local checker club and played slow games with alex moiseyev for practice (alex could tell u much more than i can)
obviously there is no way i can prove anything to you, its only the things i've noticed, being on both sides of the fence so to speak
i personally treat tournaments like a vacation - i enjoy going to them and competing with the best players and improving my skill level - yes it costs money and yes u can play checkers with good players online, but to me personally it is not the same
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MFulkerson
- Posts: 37
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Re: Is it really that much of a world apart?
correction, I did not start online. Learned from a relative when I was 8 up until I was 15 when I got my first book. I have only played online for about 3 years. Not to say it didn't improve me but I am not an "internet raised" player.
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Patrick Parker
- Posts: 959
- Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:32 pm
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Re: Is it really that much of a world apart?
clayton i was thinking that earlier i just didnt say it
yeah going to national is vacation
yeah going to national is vacation