3- Move tough deck ?

[Alan Millhone]

Hello everyone:

Who has access to the 3-Move 'tough deck' ? Also is it still okay since we added the new openings? With our June ACF Nationals approaching I wanted to get this item discussed ahead of time. Comments most welcome.

Sincerely:
Alan Millhone, President
American Checker Federation
District 6 Champion
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" I read my copy of 10th. ACA Ty. at Flint till my copy of "SIXTH" arrives"
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[Alex_Moiseyev]

I wanted to get this item discussed

OK, Alan, lets discuss What is your opinion ?

Alex

[Alan Millhone]

Hello Mr. Alex:

I am not enough of an expert to render an opinion. All the 3-move openings are tough for me !! If anyone has a tough deck they might list the openings on the forum for review. In Las Vegas I remember Earl Morrison drawing from the tough deck ,but honestly don't know whose deck it was?

so...............................................

1. Who owns a tough deck ?
2. Will someone list the openings contained on the tough deck?

Then we can proceed with a discussion if the current tough deck is okay or needs modification ?

Sincerely:
Alan Millhone, President
American Checker Federation
" An average Checker/Draughts Player "
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" Reading my copy of 10th. ACA at Flint till my copy of "SIXTH" arrives"
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[Alex_Moiseyev]

Mr. Millstone, privet !

Here is a Kingsrow openings ranking list ==> http://usacheckers.com/kingsrowrankings.php

There is also Richard Pask and George Miller ranking list (I don't remember - they combine it, or these are two different lists), which slightly varies from Kingsrow list.

Existing official ACF tough deck for 144 ballots includes 84 openings. Once we decide to use Kingsrow (or any other) ranking list for 156 deck, it is a question now:

how many openings tough deck shall have ?

I think the following numbers can be discussed:

-60;
-64;
-72;
-75;
-78 (half deck);
-80;
-84;
-96;

In my opnion, 60 & 64 is too "tough", 84 & 96 - too "soft". Four other other numbers 72, 75, 78 and 80 can be considered to satisfy most of players of all styles.

I remember - me and Lisle Carmier were very much agree with 78 when he prepared deck, but then everything with tough deck was postponed.

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Yes, 72/75/78/80 are good neutral numbers, but personally I like 60 ! So much fun Computer deck, if I am not mistaken, had 51 opening in the World Championship, I played my historical match with Wyllie program - 64 openings under 144 deck.

Regards,

Alex

[Alan Millhone]

Hello Mr. Alex:

A little bit of fun.......... I love it:-)

BTW........... I would like to see further input from other Master players,etc. on the reconfiguration of the tough deck before this June's Nationals if possible? 60 openings sounds like a good number ? I will basically listen to those much more learned than me.

Also, what have the English,Irish,Scottish players done on the tough deck? They adopted the new openings befroe we did.

Does the tough deck really need 'updated' ? Is it tough enough the way it stands at present? However with the addition of the new openings maybe it should be updated to be accurate? Just passing thoughts to ponder and discuss.

Sincerely:
Alan Millhone, President
American Checker Federation
District 6 Champion
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" Reading 10th. ACA till "SIXTH' copy arrives "
===============================================

[Alex_Moiseyev]

Alan, I have ACF tough deck, but few card left (kids played with cards ) - in total 75 from 84. If you want - I can place them here. It doesn't include new openings.

I had reviewed Kigsrow ranking list and feel comfortable to use it for making final decision.

I don't beleive Irish. Scottish, England , Barbados or any other National Checkers / Draughts Federation use tough deck, because they don't play 4 games round. This is restrictly ACF patent If some day we'll play 2 games rounds only - we don't need tough deck.

Alex

[Alex_Moiseyev]

In order to make the card random selection procedure easy and proper (each opening of tough deck has even chance to be randomly selected) we can use the following systems:

1. 64 cards tough deck. 8 cards, each marked with number 1-8 and has 8 openings on it. (or 16x4)

2. 72 cards tough deck. 12 cards, each marked with 1-6 number and has 6 openings on it.

3. 75 cards tough deck. 15 cards, each marked with number 1-5 and has 5 openings on it.

4. 80 cards tought deck. 20 cards, each marked with number 1-4 and has 4 openings on it.

5. 96 cards tough deck. 24 cards, each marked with number 1-4 and has 4 openings on it.

Any other number of cards in tough deck will make it much harder to do this.

All these systems will allow you to complete 2 easy steps:

1. Pick the card for number.
2. Put card back, mix deck and pick the card again. Use an opening, which march to number selected at first step.

Allex

[Gene Lindsay]

I have never seen an actual tough deck. What we used to use was a regular deck of cards with some of the cards removed. There was a card(about 9x5) that told what opening each card represented. I think I still have one of these cards somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.

Gene Lindsay

[Alex_Moiseyev]

Gene, what do you think about Kingsrow ranking list ==> http://usacheckers.com/kingsrowrankings.php ?

Do you agree in general with it ? It is not so important - what opening ranked as #1 (the toughest) or #2. More important are numbers which are close to cut-off zone, starting 60 and below.

Do you see any more tough (in your opinion) ballots at the bottom of list, which would be worthy to include in "tough deck" ?

Many ballots in this zone are not hard 2-moves, all at the same level of complexity. Sometimes it is hard to say (with inches accuracy) - which one os more toughest.

Regrds,

Alex

[Gene Lindsay]

Alex, At first glance I don't think too much of it. I looked at your proposed cutoff at 60, then at 61 is the kelso and at 66 the octopus. I doubt if anyone will be able to convice me the kelso is tougher than the octpus. So I think using Kingsrow's list would not be a good idea. The standard tough deck that we have now does not include the kelso, it does include the octopus as it should. How we got the tough deck was that a committee was appointed to decide which openings would be included and which would not. I think the committee was Lowder, Burton and Davis. I think we should use that deck plus the new openings that have been added. I do think that a few of these openings could be thrown out, but we should appoint another committee to study this and make a recommendation and that recommendation should then be voted on.

Gene Lindsay

[Alex_Moiseyev]

I think we should use that deck plus the new openings that have been added. I do think that a few of these openings could be thrown out, but we should appoint another committee to study this and make a recommendation and that recommendation should then be voted on.

Good idea too. And proper. I can only extend it. We can start from existing deck + 12 new openings, in total 96, but then go back and reduce this number to 72-75. I think 96 openings is a huge number and not as tough.

What probably happened with Kigsrow estimates ... programmers usually putted more analyses on the critical openings, therefore Octopus became less critical, than other, less study openings.

Remember, in practice match Kingsrow vs Cake (624 games), from 4 losing game one lost occured in ... GAYP opening FIFE !


Alex

[rich beckwith]

John,

The tough Deck has been used for a long time in the Masters group at 3-move Nationals when the round is still tied after the first two-games. The idea is to prevent too "easy" an opening from being drawn to help coax a winner.

[Alex_Moiseyev]

when the round is still tied after the first two-games

Richard, not quite correct. The players use tough deck, when first two games in round are drawn. In other words - if each partner win a piece, they don't use a tough deck.

Alex

[Ingo_Zachos]

The players use tough deck, when first two games in round are drawn. In other words - if each partner win a piece, they don't use a tough deck.

Alex

This looks to me (never played 3-move) as a violation against the rules of fair play:

either all players should play with a tough deck in all games or no one in no game, but not some players in some games, as this is clearly creating different conditions (easier to win) for some players, and might hurt the chances of the others who might lose ground in a tournament that way.
All chances should be equal for all players!

It would be like some players play their heat in GAYP and others in 3 move.

Greetinx from winter-cold Dortmund, Germany

Ingo Zachos

[Gene Lindsay]

Alex, Richard is correct if round is tied you draw from the tough deck. It does not matter 2 draws or 1 win each, you still draw from the tough deck to try to decide a winner.

Gene Lindsay