Turn-based ethics

General Discussion about the game of Checkers.
Pedro Saavedra
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Re: Turn-based ethics

Post by Pedro Saavedra »

john reade wrote:I don't see any difference between 'turn-based' and postal checkers. Why the new name?
The ethical issues are the same, and they are as ambiguous in postal checkers (which I played years ago, as well as postal chess). I have asked not so much to decide what to do (though I did have a real situation) but because I would like to see an article or a posted set of rules that clears up many of the ambiguities. In these days of computers and search engines, some issues arise which never did when postal play was done by snail mail, but some of the old issues linger. I enjoy games where I can tip-toe to the border of the rules, take advantage of them, but not violate them. This is a common strategy in different games and I consider it legitimate, but the rules should be spelled out so one player will not hurt his chances by being too scrupulous or another have them helped by stepping over the line. Yes, there is no way to enforce them, but it serves as a guide for players for whom these things matter.

Say you are playing a postal game (in days before computers and data bases) and you get into a variation of the Flora Temple you do not know or can find in your books, and suspect it might be a cook. You have a friend who is an avid player, belong to a club, and are playing other postal games. Which of the following are OK?

1: You ask Joe to help you analyze the position (this is clearly unethical in my opinion).
2: You ask Joe if he has a copy of Duffy's Single Corner you can borrow (this is clearly ethical in my opinion).
3: You show Joe the position and ask if he has any books or published articles which might discuss it.
4: You know Joe has compiled unpublished notes over the years and ask to see his notes on the Flora Temple.
5: You do the last and Joe updates his notes upon hearing it and then gives you his updated notes.
6: You challenge Joe to an evening of checkers and try to play the Flora Temple whenever you can.
7: You challenge Joe to an evening of checkers where you agree to play both sides of the Single Corner every game.
8: You challenge Joe to an evening of checkers and you agree to play both sides of the position.
9: You attend a lecture by a master who reaches the position before the cook, and you bring up your opponent's cook as a question.
10: You are playing another postal game against an opponent who plays faster and is stronger than you are, and you play the cook to essentially get your second opponent do some of the research work for you.

Show these to other postal players and you will get different answers as to which are ethical. The advent of computers make things more complicated. I recall one mail play championship which made the use of any computer except Chinook legal. That was before some other computers increased considerably. Incidentally, I think there is room for man-computer teams to compete with one another, as I do not think the stronger computer will inevitably win or that two players with the same computer will draw every game. But that has to be stipulated in the rules beforehand.

Some leagues or servers have different rules than others, but few ever get into such details. I would like to see discussion, but "when in doubt don't" is not helpful, precisely because I believe that knowing the exact rules, taking advantage of them, but never overstepping them, is one of the things that makes the game exciting for me. And I would like to see an article posted in a website to which players can refer to make sure they have the same understanding of the rules. Perhaps I am too obsessive, but I used to never begin a game of twenty questions with my kids during a road trip without going over the rules and appointing my wife (who does not like to play) as referee. And as chess tournament director thirty-some years ago I made Chess Life with a ruling which some friends still debate (a player resigned in a stalemated position -- I ruled that stalemate ended the game and thus it was a draw). That has made me a rules buff thereafter.

Pedro
chipschap
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Re: Turn-based ethics

Post by chipschap »

What is important is not so much exactly which rules are "right" but that rules be clear and agreed-upon. If, for example, you agree that books and only books are OK, then computer databases are out (let alone computer analysis). If you also specify "no outside help" then you can't ask for someone else's notes, play "demo" games to learn the line, or attend a relevant lecture.

The ACF needs to draft a clear, unambiguous set of rules for postal / turn-based play (call it by whatever name you wish) and then promote these rules widely.

My personal preference is to make the rules lean toward the use of personal skill as far as reasonably possible, but that's just me. In any case, would Marvin J. Mavin use a computer to select his moves? Perish the thought!
Pedro Saavedra
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Re: Turn-based ethics

Post by Pedro Saavedra »

chipschap wrote:The ACF needs to draft a clear, unambiguous set of rules for postal / turn-based play (call it by whatever name you wish) and then promote these rules widely.
Actually there could be two or three sets and a turn-based site or a tournament could use one or another and refer to it by name. I prefer rules that allow the use of any published material, no matter how you get it (including asking a friend, googling it, and so forth) and allow attending a lecture on the opening, but not asking about a move played in the game. At a minimum if you know the line was played in a given game you should be able to ask a friend if he has a copy of the game.

Anybody who has played both mail and crossboard at the same time can tell you he likes to play crossboard lines he is playing by mail. And I do not think what you are playing in one game should restrict what you are allowed to play in another (even using different modes or different speeds). I also think computer-assisted should be an allowable mode by mutual agreement, as long as everybody knows that is what you are doing.

Pedro
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Patrick Parker
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Re: Turn-based ethics

Post by Patrick Parker »

i know the original post is turn based ethics but i think the most important thing is
that two opponents are aware of what is an agreed right and wrong in their game and that those
rules also fit the websites, tournaments, or whatever rules

also id like to say
when playing me if you are using anything beside your brain i consider you a cheater
as thats all id have at my disposal
i know in mail play the exploration of an idea or a line might be different
like trying to discover new draws or something like that than using outisde sources is ok
but if its for competition and u dont have it prepared ahead of time...then its unfair

but this is honor system people will do what they want
jimloy
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Re: Turn-based ethics

Post by jimloy »

Are you saying that I'm cheating when I follow the rules? Because, on ItsYourTurn.com (usually at 72 hours per move), I play with Basic Checkers (or maybe one of the I-D booklets, or Pask's Golden Dozen, or an old ACFB, or rarely Churchill's Compilations) open to the page that is being played. Occasionally, these books help me win.
chipschap
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Re: Turn-based ethics

Post by chipschap »

Are you saying that I'm cheating when I follow the rules? Because, on ItsYourTurn.com (usually at 72 hours per move), I play with Basic Checkers (or maybe one of the I-D booklets, or Pask's Golden Dozen, or an old ACFB, or rarely Churchill's Compilations) open to the page that is being played. Occasionally, these books help me win.
You are not cheating if you are following the rules as agreed (it follows that clear agreement on the rules is needed, of course). This is independent of an assessment of the "quality" of a win obtained using books. However, if books are legal, and you don't use them, you are at a huge disadvantage.

But turn-based or correspondence checkers has as a skill element the ability to do research. Over the board or head to head play does not. They are different games.
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Patrick Parker
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Re: Turn-based ethics

Post by Patrick Parker »

pedro a while back pointed out that IYT allows using books etc
i dont play there any longer
i would say if u use anything beside your brain in any setting that isnt agreed upon by both players...cheating
i understand mail play ...........i cannot see using books as anytimde beside serious competition ....waste of time?
except maybe practice
i dont look at online play as practice
my views are different im sure but hey we are all different, however if i am your opponent dont use books or dont play me
i view someone using a book as wasting my time...how can i know how good i am if i am playing richard fortmans book?
other checker players are our peers....not 6th, bc, etc etc ....but mostly i am not referring to mail play style but
some players use books in kurnik
Pedro Saavedra
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Re: Turn-based ethics

Post by Pedro Saavedra »

Patrick Parker wrote:pedro a while back pointed out that IYT allows using books etc
i dont play there any longer .
I will point out that Gold Token and Wyllie also allow books and so does ACF mail play. I would not play without books. One reason is simple. I am not as good at memorizing so I have to specialize in reaching a position my opponent may never have seen and taking it from there. Memory is very important in crossboard play and that is not my forte.

So I like book play. I will always use books and references in turn-based play and would not play where they are not allowed. Jim Loy and I have often played and after the game exchanged notes on sources or on what happens if we deviate from the book. One time I escaped by catching a mistake in Basic Checkers -- had I followed it blindly I would have lost. That was part of the joy.

Part of the joy also is to play a well-known player using his own notes or games.

So, Patrick, it looks like we will not play each other again. You do not play with books and I do not play without books. Next you will be saying that setting up my checker set and moving the pieces around is also cheating (I know some folks that say that since you cannot do that at crossboard you should not do it in turn-based).

It's a different mode from crossboard or live online play. It is one I prefer. You do not have to play it, but if you do, you will have to accept the rules of the server or tournament. I played correspondence chess since the early 1960s, and correspondence checkers since the early 1970s. I always used books and searching for new articles was part of the fun. And most of the time we were out of the book in no time.

Pedro
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