Online Matches

[Alex_Moiseyev]

John / Pedro,

yes, it maybe a perfect format for World Team Cup. In this case we don't need a referee to travel, and referee candidacy can be picked up by WCDF among experienced, respectable members of National Federations. But you will need operators-assistants for each table. I think it's possible and real today.

Maybe for the first time we can organize such match among couple countries, see how it works and learn more about this procedure.

I like this idea !

For official and serious matches I am not a big fan yet to accept this idea today. Too many uncertancies.

However ... starting playing team matches will be a very good test and source for information.

AM

[Ingo_Zachos]

... Pedro pointed out that online matches may be an option given sufficient safeguards against cheating or other unfair advantages, and Alex suggested that the online format may be better suited to less formal matches rather than WCMs. ...

1.this is day dreaming.
Cheating is always possible in my expirience and to my knowledge on the internet.
there are regular sites and Fori who even share the latest cheats and see it as sport to hack the safest playing site in the internet.

To fight it or to think you can fight it is like to think you can fight doping by tersting or windmills.
It never works.

It is also possible to cheat crossboards, but can be detected easier and requires more effort, but the Doping issue shows you that as long as theri is money at stake, it will be impossible to avoid cheating in any case.

2. visualisation and psycological tension is different to a crossbaord encounter. Much different.
So no online event can ever replace a crossboard event.

and here is my favorite reason why the net can never replace a tournament:

3. the object of a tournament is to meet players, not to avoid meeting them.
In this respect the suggestion fails by light years.

So I have to say: no.
You can stage online events and crown an online WC, but I suspect the real deal will always be real playing and not a virtual competition.

Greetinx from sunny Dortmund,

Ingo Zachos

[Pedro Saavedra]

In the 1970s (I do not know the exact years it lasted) a United States Chess League was formed which played by phone. The matches were advertised by the local clubs. I witnessed one match between the Washington Plumbers and the Chicago Prairie Dogs (I was at the Chicago Chess Club). It was an interesting experience. A friend of mine was a prominent attorney in a very small town, and he recruited a team from the surrounding counties (which included the University of Virginia and was not that far from Richmond) and entered a team in the league. It was exciting for the people in the town to be told that a local team was playing in a nation-wide league.

One point is that with a number of spectators, perhaps some with sympathies for the other team (I had more friends in the Washington team than in the Chicago one) and some for fair play, it is not that easy to cheat. I think Alex has a good idea as a starter.

Pedro

[Ingo_Zachos]

An internet event can never replace a real tournament as much as a webcam showing the Mona Lisa can never match seeing it in real life.
It is not authentic.


Greetinx,

Ingo

[Pedro Saavedra]

An internet event can never replace a real tournament as much as a webcam showing the Mona Lisa can never match seeing it in real life.
It is not authentic.
Ingo

Why? I for one prefer turn-based play, so crossboard does not personally cut it for me. This is not as a replacement because of my back, but through the ages I preferred correspondence chess and checkers to crossboard. And though I have only played in a couple of crossboard checker tournaments, I played in many an over the board chess tournament through the years.

However, suppose that we decided that play had to be live. Why is sitting at a table so much different than at a computer? And in a match you would sit at a table and the referee would make the moves for your opponent.

What it lacks is the not inconsiderable social component of tournaments. Which is why I would restrict it to matches, where most people in attendance are spectators.

Pedro

[Alex_Moiseyev]

Hey, guys !

Here my thoughts ...

1. As John mentioned, and also referring to Tinsley comments regarding his match with Chinook, it is quite unusual atmosphere. I would like to make it as close to real game as possible. I don't like to play against phisical computer and screen. There should be normal chair, table an board. Only my opponent will not be there ... lets say - went out for smoke Referee assitant should go to my table, make a move for my opponent and push clocks. The only difference will be - When I make a move, I have TO STOP clocks.

I can see a problem here when someone running out of time and has less than 3 minutes on clocks. I don't have any good idea how to handle this. Any thoughts ?

2. Sponsors could be software development companies, in particular - companies which develop online games. Just dreams

3. Assistant should operate moves: accept them from MAIN computer and pass to player. Accept moves from players and pass them to his opponents. Players shall not have any access to computers and ability to see or touch anything !!!

4. If some game finished - announcement shall be done to all members of both teams.

5. Main referee should control the whole situation in entire room. Memebers of team cannot have any communications or talks to each other.

6. Starting playing matches will be a good start with minimum expanses. To organize online tournament with many players from many countries, either Robin Round or Swiss, will be much more complicated and confusing and may ruin a good idea.

7. So - I am a big fan of idea to make an online World Team Cup. National Federation of each country which participate in event, shall be responsible for everything running at their location.

More later ...

I like this conversation much more than all dialogues which touch a nerve of everyone who writes and read

Regards,

AM

[Alex_Moiseyev]

Didn't we play an unofficial "USA vs. the World" match a few years ago, via ItsYourTurn.com?

Yes, but it was unofficial and not serious match For serious online play I like my scheme or something similar.

All players of one team will be in one playing room with tables, chairs, boards and clocks.

Main computer will be connected to Internet playing site (or chat) and located on referee table. Asisstants -operators will be moving between referee table and players passing moves back-and-forward.

If you have in mind match with format which we used when we played for fun over ItsYourTurn - do it without me, folks

Serious match will take several days ... depends how many teams and rounds. If there will be 10 teams, we need 9 rounds for Robin Round, or full 3 days - normal State tournament in USA for long weekend !!!

AM

[Eric Strange]

I cannot give a time line when this will be done. probably a while from now. I lack the $$ to get my sites going how I want them. My plan for my play site will be to have a tournament applet for certain events with as much security as possible (there is always a way to cheat). limiting the players who can play in the applet to being ACF members, requiring a web cam to show the player playing and his surroundings , with a microphone so you can hear if someone is shouting moves from another room, as well as having someone who knows computers make sure there are no unneeded processes running in the background should eliminate most cheating... If someone still wants to cheat that bad and figures out a way then he deserves it. Especially since the ONLY time anyone will be allowed in this applet is for a tournament game they wont have enough time to develop a program.

This has all been part of my idea for my checkers site for a long time. Although nothing online can ever be cheat proof.... with all these measures taken I would feel pretty safe.

I am going to be closing on a new house in the next couple months and my wife will be going to college so single income will leave me with even less. My coder is a good enough friend... he said he will still work on my sites though. Just not gonna be a priority over his other job. So the checkers site I'm sure you all can't wait for is gonna take quite some time to get finished but its slowly moving forward.

Special thanks to Jim Loy for adding missing moves to Kears and other books so they could be added to my site. I don't know what I would do without someone like him who cares as much as I do.

[Alex_Moiseyev]

Eric, all after all, there are some psychological aspects involved. For me computer screen would never ever-ever-ever replace a real board ! It is probably the same process as getting a rose smell in gas mask

Seriously, playing competitive checkers for more than 40 years, all my instincts and reflects are adopted to board and pieces.

And also, with all your promises, it always won't be enough security, unless you play in public place.

So ... we need Internet only for connections and passing moves. Otherwise it will be childish play.

Just thoughts ...

AM

[Pedro Saavedra]

So ... we need Internet only for connections and passing moves. Otherwise it will be childish play.
AM

Would you object if your opponent preferred to play dirctly, but was monitored by a trusted referee? Not that I would play at your level, but with my bad back, I would prefer staring straight forward sitting on an ergonomic chair than bending over a board.

Pedro

[Alex_Moiseyev]

Would you object if your opponent preferred to play directly, but was monitored by a trusted referee?

No, I won't object and will be OK with this structure. Even more - I will be very happy with such format, because I know for sure that it will hurt my opponents alot and have serious influence on their performance !

[Eric Strange]

All of your checkers play has been adapted on a board.
All of my checkers play has been adapted on a computer screen along with all other young players... most anyways.
I do not think world championship matches should be done in this manner or any big tournaments. But I do like the idea about having exhibition matches done this way and a few other types of matches. Not too mention I think it would put peoples minds enough at ease with the security in place to enjoy the tournament without worrying about someone programming. I just think it would be fun.

[Alex_Moiseyev]

Ron King for years had an idea to promote GAYP match via Internet among Barbados and some other team.

[Danny_Alvarez]

Leaving in the middle of nowhere and being so isolated.... my view on this is that this would be nice if we could set up some form of competition this way. (thats what my heart says)

My brain says that it would be very very difficult to set up and monitor correctly and that despite all measures these events wont be recognised until they are backed by crossboard results. But it is an idea worth considering. See if it is going to cost 3000 dollars to attend an event it is kinda hard to do it every year or a few times a year.

those are my two cents worth.

Danny Alvarez the rain monger