Hello Alex,
It seems that I have you confused also. Yes, 1216 lost as would 8-11 but Ron King was
in a loss well earlier than his 1216. William explained it pretty good about how to
draw.
All the best,
Mac
3-moves WCM 2009
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Ingo_Zachos
- Posts: 1286
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Re: 3-moves WCM 2009
Do you only play Kelso and Bristol?
Seems very odd and maybe you should change the deck cards you used
May the best man win.
Here is the reconstruction of the game:
1. King,R. - Moiseyev,A.
WCM, game 8, 6.10.2009
1.10-15 23-18 2.06-10 18-14 3.09:18 24-19 4.15:24 22:06 5.01:10 28:19 6.11-15 27-24 7.08-11 25-22 8.11-16 26-23 9.16-20 31-27 10.05-09 22-17 11.09-14 29-25 12.04-08 17-13 13.02-06 25-22 14.12-16 19:12 15.15-18 22:15 16.10:26?? 30:23 0-1
Alex once wrote in The Sixth that 1.10-15 23-18, 2. 6-10 is one of his favorite openings.
Maybe we should rename it "Moiseyev opening"?
I also figured out that even with the better 16. 10x28 White is winning.
William is right that 11.4-8 is the known published play, and that 11.9-14 may be already the loser.
And maybe 6.11-15 is not even the best, though it looks natural, but 6.10-14 looks worth a try.
8. ... 21-17 is the main line in Basic Checkers by Fortman, but 8. ... 26-23 looks as good as that and is not that often played or even mentioned.
Ron is not well prepared it seems as in is book "The Sixth" Alex gives in game 31 of the selected games section (GM Beckwith- GM Moiseyev, Northern States Ty 2002) in note E, page 291, only the main line 8. ... 21-17 as played, and writes : "...the classic 8. ... 25-22 , or 8. ...31-27, introduced by Chinook (...) are all thorougly covered in the checkers literature"
Note:
It is telling that he omitted 8. ... 26-23.
I believe he had this line in his sleeve for a better occasion, and Ron did not study The Sixth as much as he would need to be good prepared.
Note that a master never gives away all of his secret weapons in his books, but you can guess where he has something cooked up by looking for lines he does not mention.
Greetinx from stormy Dortmund at midnight,
Ingo Zachos
P.S: In oder to avoid confusion you should always quote the move number of a certain line, as otherwise you only confuse yourself and your readers as well.
Seems very odd and maybe you should change the deck cards you used
May the best man win.
Here is the reconstruction of the game:
1. King,R. - Moiseyev,A.
WCM, game 8, 6.10.2009
1.10-15 23-18 2.06-10 18-14 3.09:18 24-19 4.15:24 22:06 5.01:10 28:19 6.11-15 27-24 7.08-11 25-22 8.11-16 26-23 9.16-20 31-27 10.05-09 22-17 11.09-14 29-25 12.04-08 17-13 13.02-06 25-22 14.12-16 19:12 15.15-18 22:15 16.10:26?? 30:23 0-1
Alex once wrote in The Sixth that 1.10-15 23-18, 2. 6-10 is one of his favorite openings.
Maybe we should rename it "Moiseyev opening"?
I also figured out that even with the better 16. 10x28 White is winning.
William is right that 11.4-8 is the known published play, and that 11.9-14 may be already the loser.
And maybe 6.11-15 is not even the best, though it looks natural, but 6.10-14 looks worth a try.
8. ... 21-17 is the main line in Basic Checkers by Fortman, but 8. ... 26-23 looks as good as that and is not that often played or even mentioned.
Ron is not well prepared it seems as in is book "The Sixth" Alex gives in game 31 of the selected games section (GM Beckwith- GM Moiseyev, Northern States Ty 2002) in note E, page 291, only the main line 8. ... 21-17 as played, and writes : "...the classic 8. ... 25-22 , or 8. ...31-27, introduced by Chinook (...) are all thorougly covered in the checkers literature"
Note:
It is telling that he omitted 8. ... 26-23.
I believe he had this line in his sleeve for a better occasion, and Ron did not study The Sixth as much as he would need to be good prepared.
Note that a master never gives away all of his secret weapons in his books, but you can guess where he has something cooked up by looking for lines he does not mention.
Greetinx from stormy Dortmund at midnight,
Ingo Zachos
P.S: In oder to avoid confusion you should always quote the move number of a certain line, as otherwise you only confuse yourself and your readers as well.
You can rent this space for advertising, if you like!
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Alex_Moiseyev
- Posts: 4346
- Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:03 pm
- What do you like about checkers?: .....
Re: 3-moves WCM 2009
Wednesday, evening session.
G11, RK (0.48) vs AM (1.48), 11-15 23-18 15-19, Draw
G12, AM (0.45) vs RK (0.28), 11-15 23-18 15-19, Draw
Montecross, tears on my eyes, nostalgia ... So many memory involve ... G20 in WCM 2003, nuclear cook.
Anyway, today we both used 8-11 defense instead poisen 12-16. In first game we've got some mess in the middle, but when time control was passed and smoke cleared, Ron had a better ending which forced me to play it very accurately to survive. In 2nd game I also played 8-11, but later differed from Ron play and 've got very suspicious position. Lucky to me he again missed some simple trick which allowed me an easy escape.
Twelve games is over, score is even: 1-1-10.
Ron is in excellent form, this is his best match compare with two other previous matches between us.
Most of games are x-aboard and all of them were very tough.
Regards,
Alex
=====================================================================================
Mac, you made me a day ! I thought it was a draw if Ron would jump it correctly, and I didn't feel comfortable with such sort of win. In fact - it was a win anyway
G11, RK (0.48) vs AM (1.48), 11-15 23-18 15-19, Draw
G12, AM (0.45) vs RK (0.28), 11-15 23-18 15-19, Draw
Montecross, tears on my eyes, nostalgia ... So many memory involve ... G20 in WCM 2003, nuclear cook.
Anyway, today we both used 8-11 defense instead poisen 12-16. In first game we've got some mess in the middle, but when time control was passed and smoke cleared, Ron had a better ending which forced me to play it very accurately to survive. In 2nd game I also played 8-11, but later differed from Ron play and 've got very suspicious position. Lucky to me he again missed some simple trick which allowed me an easy escape.
Twelve games is over, score is even: 1-1-10.
Ron is in excellent form, this is his best match compare with two other previous matches between us.
Most of games are x-aboard and all of them were very tough.
Regards,
Alex
=====================================================================================
Mac, you made me a day ! I thought it was a draw if Ron would jump it correctly, and I didn't feel comfortable with such sort of win. In fact - it was a win anyway
I am playing checkers, not chess.
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Alan Millhone
- Site Admin
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:02 am
- Location: Belpre,Ohio
Re: 3-moves WCM 2009
Hello Everyone:
Just got back home from 2 1/2 days at WCM . Very educational to hang with two World Champions and to watch them at work at the board. Mr. Alex likes to have breakfast at local Waffle House; Eggs 'sunny side up' , tomato slices, h-a-m , hash browns, toast, coffee, juice, butter............. Breakfast of a Champion . Playing in a World Title match definately stimulates one's appetite
I arrived Monday afternoon and watched the two evening games , all four of Tuesday's games ,Wednesday's morning two games and one game tonight before I hit the road. It is interesting to watch these two Checker giants and try to figure their strategy and where they will next move ?
Mr. Steve Holliday is doing an excellent job as the match referee. I knew Steve in my first Checker lifetime over 30 years ago. Neither of us have changed any over the years !
I also want to personally and publicly thank Evergreen/Uni (Mr. Joe Lo Conti, Mr. Joey Lo Conti and Mr. Dan Clark ) for their sponsorship of this WCM and for their continued support for the 'Grand Old Game' . Evergreen/Uni is also responsible for the documentary being made . The film crew will be in the playing room tomorrow.
It is my hope to return to Medina next Wednesday for the evening's play and final day of play on Thursday and closing ceremony.
Sincerely:
Alan Millhone, President
American Checker Federation
" Journeyman Checker Player "
Just got back home from 2 1/2 days at WCM . Very educational to hang with two World Champions and to watch them at work at the board. Mr. Alex likes to have breakfast at local Waffle House; Eggs 'sunny side up' , tomato slices, h-a-m , hash browns, toast, coffee, juice, butter............. Breakfast of a Champion . Playing in a World Title match definately stimulates one's appetite
I arrived Monday afternoon and watched the two evening games , all four of Tuesday's games ,Wednesday's morning two games and one game tonight before I hit the road. It is interesting to watch these two Checker giants and try to figure their strategy and where they will next move ?
Mr. Steve Holliday is doing an excellent job as the match referee. I knew Steve in my first Checker lifetime over 30 years ago. Neither of us have changed any over the years !
I also want to personally and publicly thank Evergreen/Uni (Mr. Joe Lo Conti, Mr. Joey Lo Conti and Mr. Dan Clark ) for their sponsorship of this WCM and for their continued support for the 'Grand Old Game' . Evergreen/Uni is also responsible for the documentary being made . The film crew will be in the playing room tomorrow.
It is my hope to return to Medina next Wednesday for the evening's play and final day of play on Thursday and closing ceremony.
Sincerely:
Alan Millhone, President
American Checker Federation
" Journeyman Checker Player "
Re: 3-moves WCM 2009
Ingo ,
26-23 is a line which has been played so many times that he probably felt that it did not need mentioning!!
Of course the only hope is for the 21-17 pitch on that line , and there is no new play to date since the mid 40's on that particular line . So I would guess that Alex did not have anything new on that line , and proof is that he did not know if 12-16 was loss or not( ref. question to Mac by Alex ). If he knew the line he would have been aware of correct order of moves ie 4-8 before 9-14...and also proof , he won the game on a very old pp line quoted by Mac , and also I beat Buckby on the line after 8-11 instead os 12-16 , then I pitch 21-17 .
Probably the best attack for originality is the 27x20 jump instead of 28x19 at the beginning of game...
Ron has shown us once again that his level of PP knowledge is very low ... however after Alex's comments on match , Ron is on fantastic X-board form !!!
From what I seem to imagine from match , Alex is still stable with reasonable PP knowledge , However could be lagging behind slightly on x-board performance , compared to Ron.
Nothing though can take away that these two guys are amongst the top ten best players today , and will continue to give us an interesting match right up till the end
WILLIAM
26-23 is a line which has been played so many times that he probably felt that it did not need mentioning!!
Of course the only hope is for the 21-17 pitch on that line , and there is no new play to date since the mid 40's on that particular line . So I would guess that Alex did not have anything new on that line , and proof is that he did not know if 12-16 was loss or not( ref. question to Mac by Alex ). If he knew the line he would have been aware of correct order of moves ie 4-8 before 9-14...and also proof , he won the game on a very old pp line quoted by Mac , and also I beat Buckby on the line after 8-11 instead os 12-16 , then I pitch 21-17 .
Probably the best attack for originality is the 27x20 jump instead of 28x19 at the beginning of game...
Ron has shown us once again that his level of PP knowledge is very low ... however after Alex's comments on match , Ron is on fantastic X-board form !!!
From what I seem to imagine from match , Alex is still stable with reasonable PP knowledge , However could be lagging behind slightly on x-board performance , compared to Ron.
Nothing though can take away that these two guys are amongst the top ten best players today , and will continue to give us an interesting match right up till the end
WILLIAM
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Alex_Moiseyev
- Posts: 4346
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- What do you like about checkers?: .....
Re: 3-moves WCM 2009
Thursday, morning session.
G13, RK (1.05) vs AM (1.59), 11-16 24-20 16-19, Draw
G14, AM (0.55) vs RK (0.27), 11-16 24-20 16-19, Draw
In G13 Ron made a clever man down bridge draw, in 2nd game he also didn't play accurately in the middle, but still draw.
Evening session will be resume at 4PM. We may finish late tonight ... depends how things going.
AM
G13, RK (1.05) vs AM (1.59), 11-16 24-20 16-19, Draw
G14, AM (0.55) vs RK (0.27), 11-16 24-20 16-19, Draw
In G13 Ron made a clever man down bridge draw, in 2nd game he also didn't play accurately in the middle, but still draw.
Evening session will be resume at 4PM. We may finish late tonight ... depends how things going.
AM
I am playing checkers, not chess.
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Alex_Moiseyev
- Posts: 4346
- Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:03 pm
- What do you like about checkers?: .....
Re: 3-moves WCM 2009
Thursday, evening session.
G15, AM (0.58) vs RK (0.25), 11-15 22-17 15-19, WW
G16, RK (0.10) vs AM (0.25), 11-15 22-17 15-19, Draw
This time Ron played on his territory, GAYP and did well.
Total score after 16 games: 2-1-13 in Ron favor.
AM
G15, AM (0.58) vs RK (0.25), 11-15 22-17 15-19, WW
G16, RK (0.10) vs AM (0.25), 11-15 22-17 15-19, Draw
This time Ron played on his territory, GAYP and did well.
Total score after 16 games: 2-1-13 in Ron favor.
No, we don't play on Saturday, this is break day.JohnAcker wrote:Alex, will you guys be playing on Saturday, or is that a rest day?
AM
I am playing checkers, not chess.
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Alex_Moiseyev
- Posts: 4346
- Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 5:03 pm
- What do you like about checkers?: .....
Re: 3-moves WCM 2009
G17, AM (1.00) vs RK (0.50), 9-13 24-20 10-14, WW
G18, RK (0.40) vs AM (0.12), 9-13 24-20 10-14, Draw
G19, RK (1.00) vs AM (1.55), 9-13 21-17 5-9, Draw
G20, AM (0.10) vs RK (0.12), 9-13 21-17 5-9, Draw
I probably missed a win in G19. We finished first half of match, Ron is 2 games ahead. Even with such kind of scenario I'm confident enough in final outcome. Everything is still ahead and I suggest all my fans and supporters don't give up - that's what I do too !
Respectfully,
AM
G18, RK (0.40) vs AM (0.12), 9-13 24-20 10-14, Draw
G19, RK (1.00) vs AM (1.55), 9-13 21-17 5-9, Draw
G20, AM (0.10) vs RK (0.12), 9-13 21-17 5-9, Draw
I probably missed a win in G19. We finished first half of match, Ron is 2 games ahead. Even with such kind of scenario I'm confident enough in final outcome. Everything is still ahead and I suggest all my fans and supporters don't give up - that's what I do too !
Respectfully,
AM
I am playing checkers, not chess.
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MostFamousDane
- Posts: 400
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:55 pm
- Location: Brondby, Denmark
- Contact:
Re: 3-moves WCM 2009
Wow what a surprising development.
I hope you use rest days well Alex and come back strong to show him whos the boss!
I hope you use rest days well Alex and come back strong to show him whos the boss!
Sune
Re: 3-moves WCM 2009
Alex Moiseyev and Ron King,
Please note....
Now that the match is actually taking place...
As promised, I have sent a $50.00 Paypal Donation via ACF Store....I prefer it to go to whoever is CHAMPION after the match...
Regards
Jay H
Please note....
Now that the match is actually taking place...
As promised, I have sent a $50.00 Paypal Donation via ACF Store....I prefer it to go to whoever is CHAMPION after the match...
Regards
Jay H
Aut Inveniam Viam Aut Faciam !!!
Re: 3-moves WCM 2009
Mmmmm ,
If I could be allowed a few humble comments on this match , having reached the halfway point , as I see it from the outside , on a more psychological level rather than technical ( as I have not seen any of the games yet).
It would apear to me that up to this point of match we have discovered a more mature Ron King . He gives me the impression that he has worked hard on the theoretical side of game rather than any particular openings , although I would state that he most surely did go over all of Alex's games at least twice!!
He seems to have shed his kamikazee skin( which was his downfall in last two matches) for a more stable defensive mode of play.
As usual , any opportunity left by Alex for Ron will be consumed without moderation!!
The two slips that Alex told us about when Ron missed Alex's pitches to a draw , where apparently there was more on the board to be taken advantge of are usual in any kind of match or Ty. whether it be at amateur or GM level , and I doubt that this will worry him.
At this point of match He is capable of hanging onto his lead ... if he stays on same mode , But Ron may still be Ron !?!
As far as Alex is concerned , he is a fighter , and has come back from the dead many a time , he does this though by using weaker lines , or losses ( or goatgetters as Oldbury would call them) to throw the opponent , then put on the strangle hold.
This time though Ron looks solid and may avoid the complications that Alex needs to get "it" on.
Comparing both players during last two matches Alex gave us the impression of playing stable orthodox checkers , but I will state hear that he will have to play " King's " style to get back on track.
I personally feel that both players these last years dropped in level of play ( of course they are still among the best!!) but it is perhaps Ron who has realised this first , and that could make the difference.
Alex's side ; Good PP , Good endgame , fighter , capable of taking risks when needed , has good comeback record
Ron's side ; Highly motivated , intense reaserch of opponents style , good visualisation imagination , determination.
I am definately putting no bets on anyone here ... but shit !! I can't wait to see the games!!!
My sincere best wishes to both athletes , and may the best man win
WILLIAM
If I could be allowed a few humble comments on this match , having reached the halfway point , as I see it from the outside , on a more psychological level rather than technical ( as I have not seen any of the games yet).
It would apear to me that up to this point of match we have discovered a more mature Ron King . He gives me the impression that he has worked hard on the theoretical side of game rather than any particular openings , although I would state that he most surely did go over all of Alex's games at least twice!!
He seems to have shed his kamikazee skin( which was his downfall in last two matches) for a more stable defensive mode of play.
As usual , any opportunity left by Alex for Ron will be consumed without moderation!!
The two slips that Alex told us about when Ron missed Alex's pitches to a draw , where apparently there was more on the board to be taken advantge of are usual in any kind of match or Ty. whether it be at amateur or GM level , and I doubt that this will worry him.
At this point of match He is capable of hanging onto his lead ... if he stays on same mode , But Ron may still be Ron !?!
As far as Alex is concerned , he is a fighter , and has come back from the dead many a time , he does this though by using weaker lines , or losses ( or goatgetters as Oldbury would call them) to throw the opponent , then put on the strangle hold.
This time though Ron looks solid and may avoid the complications that Alex needs to get "it" on.
Comparing both players during last two matches Alex gave us the impression of playing stable orthodox checkers , but I will state hear that he will have to play " King's " style to get back on track.
I personally feel that both players these last years dropped in level of play ( of course they are still among the best!!) but it is perhaps Ron who has realised this first , and that could make the difference.
Alex's side ; Good PP , Good endgame , fighter , capable of taking risks when needed , has good comeback record
Ron's side ; Highly motivated , intense reaserch of opponents style , good visualisation imagination , determination.
I am definately putting no bets on anyone here ... but shit !! I can't wait to see the games!!!
My sincere best wishes to both athletes , and may the best man win
WILLIAM
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Michael Holmes
- Posts: 667
- Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:26 am
- Location: Fort Knox, KY
Re: 3-moves WCM 2009
I have played both of them and I have played Alex Moiseyev a lot. I see their play just a little different but certainly not accurately-just only as accurate as someone that has played them throughout the years. Here is a modification of Williams categories as I see it.
Alex's side ; Excellent PP (especially on the 12 new openings), very good endgame , fighter , and very capable of taking risks when needed.
Ron's side ; Extremely good endgame player , o.k. three move knowledge, seems to be traveling safer roads now-I know I would be with the lead in the match! , good visualisation imagination.
However this match turns out I am glad to see that this one is a close one!
Alex's side ; Excellent PP (especially on the 12 new openings), very good endgame , fighter , and very capable of taking risks when needed.
Ron's side ; Extremely good endgame player , o.k. three move knowledge, seems to be traveling safer roads now-I know I would be with the lead in the match! , good visualisation imagination.
However this match turns out I am glad to see that this one is a close one!
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Alan Millhone
- Site Admin
- Posts: 720
- Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:02 am
- Location: Belpre,Ohio
Re: 3-moves WCM 2009
Hello Everyone:
I hope to leave early enough from Belpre next Wednesday to see the evening round and final day on Thursday. I sat thru 2 three hour games one evening this past week and really enjoyed watching every move both men made. I am the most intrugued by their ending play after the dust settles from the mid-game. Fun to sit there and try and figure where each will move next and why ......................
I like and respect both men as players and as World Champions.
Sincerely:
Alan Millhone, President
American Checker Federation
" JOURNEYMAN CHECKER PLAYER "
I hope to leave early enough from Belpre next Wednesday to see the evening round and final day on Thursday. I sat thru 2 three hour games one evening this past week and really enjoyed watching every move both men made. I am the most intrugued by their ending play after the dust settles from the mid-game. Fun to sit there and try and figure where each will move next and why ......................
I like and respect both men as players and as World Champions.
Sincerely:
Alan Millhone, President
American Checker Federation
" JOURNEYMAN CHECKER PLAYER "
Re: 3-moves WCM 2009
You really are a lucky guy Alan , to be able to watch these games "live" and also get the atmosphere .
Often my memories of matches or Ty's are backed by the odors , feelings or sensations felt during the games rather than the games themselves and unfortunately there is not yet a program built to provide this along with the games
If you could relate to us the heaviness of the atmosphere in the room etc. gestures of the players etc. you would be doing us all a great service! And if it's not too much to ask , somme more pics
Yep these two athletes deserve merit , as they are actually exploding thousands of their neurones every day
, trying to destroy the intentions of the other .
It seems to be a major tug-of -war that's going on and in the end it will not only be technical superiority that decides the outcome
Nice complimentary info , from Michael .
We would like to hear some more views from the " heavy men" on this match
WILLIAM
Often my memories of matches or Ty's are backed by the odors , feelings or sensations felt during the games rather than the games themselves and unfortunately there is not yet a program built to provide this along with the games
If you could relate to us the heaviness of the atmosphere in the room etc. gestures of the players etc. you would be doing us all a great service! And if it's not too much to ask , somme more pics
Yep these two athletes deserve merit , as they are actually exploding thousands of their neurones every day
, trying to destroy the intentions of the other .It seems to be a major tug-of -war that's going on and in the end it will not only be technical superiority that decides the outcome
Nice complimentary info , from Michael .
We would like to hear some more views from the " heavy men" on this match
WILLIAM
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MostFamousDane
- Posts: 400
- Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:55 pm
- Location: Brondby, Denmark
- Contact:
Re: 3-moves WCM 2009
Actually a few years ago I wrote a program that allowed people to watch the live games of a tournament through the internet along with live commentary - I used it a couple of times at the Danish Open for the final but there was relatively little interest.william wrote:You really are a lucky guy Alan , to be able to watch these games "live" and also get the atmosphere .
Often my memories of matches or Ty's are backed by the odors , feelings or sensations felt during the games rather than the games themselves and unfortunately there is not yet a program built to provide this along with the games
WILLIAM
Sune