Clash of online and offline players: they will meet

[Bernard Coll]

Alex, You have again avoided answering the question I put to you. I will put it to you again, just to jolt your memory. Do the ACF actually provide their members with professionally audited annual statements of their financial status?

[Alex_Moiseyev]

Do the ACF actually provide their members with professionally audited annual statements of their financial status?

Yes, but not every year. I think last report was 2 or 3 years ago. Most significant changes happened in ACF financing - Gene Lindsay estate. All other incomes/spendings are very much standard and stagnated in the past years.

In addition - due to tough economy CD interest dropped last couple years and is less than other years. Maybe we should have next report in the nearest future (no rush) to see all above changes reflected.

Alex

[Bernard Coll]

Do the ACF actually provide their members with professionally audited annual statements of their financial status?

Yes, but not every year. I think last report was 2 or 3 years ago. Most significant changes happened in ACF financing - Gene Lindsay estate. All other incomes/spendings are very much standard and stagnated in the past years.

In addition - due to tough economy CD interest dropped last couple years and is less than other years. Maybe we should have next report in the nearest future (no rush) to see all above changes reflected.

Alex

Thank you Alex. I am not a member of the ACF, maybe someday, maybe not. But I firmly believe any member or potential member subscribing to any organisation has a right to know how their money is spent. I am a paid up member of the SDA, and the IDA. Their accounts are discussed at AGMs at least bi-annually, also published in their newsletters. Regards, Bernard.

[Alex_Moiseyev]

I said - "report publish every 2-3 years" but this is not exactly true. Portion of annual report, "ACF National Report" is published every year and includes Bidder Amount, ACF Interest donation, Entry Fee (for National), private contributions all expanses and prizes in all 3 Divisions. Tis is nopt a whole entire report, but National is the bigges event and big part of budget.

Annual membership fees are $25 which for approximately 350 members in good standings generate about $8,000 and all of them are spending to support ACF Bulletin. ACFB is absolutely non-profiable deal at all, and some years expanses are below the ground.

However, when I was thinking and asking ACF for helping some players, I realistically understand that this is only several hundred dollars and even with all such tie budget, ACF can still make it ... fully or partially.

Bernard, if you are EDA paid member in good standing - why not discuss next time at EDA annual GA about possbility to help Adam / Max to attend English Open this year ? It will be very ncie gesture and great promotional deal. Maybe roomate who agree to pay for room ? Any extra few saved bucks work and help.

[kiwinurse]

Bernard is right in what hes saying about ACF providing a financial statement every year,otherwise abuses can occur.Any organization will tell you that.Every member has a right to know how every dollar is spent.

[Bernard Coll]

I said - "report publish every 2-3 years" but this is not exactly true. Portion of annual report, "ACF National Report" is published every year and includes Bidder Amount, ACF Interest donation, Entry Fee (for National), private contributions all expanses and prizes in all 3 Divisions. Tis is nopt a whole entire report, but National is the bigges event and big part of budget.

Annual membership fees are $25 which for approximately 350 members in good standings generate about $8,000 and all of them are spending to support ACF Bulletin. ACFB is absolutely non-profiable deal at all, and some years expanses are below the ground.

However, when I was thinking and asking ACF for helping some players, I realistically understand that this is only several hundred dollars and even with all such tie budget, ACF can still make it ... fully or partially.

Bernard, if you are EDA paid member in good standing - why not discuss next time at EDA annual GA about possbility to help Adam / Max to attend English Open this year ? It will be very ncie gesture and great promotional deal. Maybe roomate who agree to pay for room ? Any extra few saved bucks work and help.

Alex, I believe the EDA is suffering from financial constraints along with other draughts/checker organisations. Also it would not be appropriate of me to suggest to the EDA to sponsor Adam or Max, as I am not an EDA member! I really do not think either of these players would turn up anyway, even with no financial outlay incurred. Not sure which player stated that the prize fund would have to be substantial for him to even consider. I think it was Adam. I would have to trawl back up the pages to verify that point. Regards, Bernard

[Alex_Moiseyev]

Alex or Kim:

Please clarify exactly how much money is being offered these players, from what source, and in exchange for what actions.

John, Alan Millhone promised me today in email to step in here, make a post and clarify ACF position on this matter.

No exact amount yet determined. In ordder to cover all transportation + accomodation expanses (w/o food) for 4 players is about $1,000 or litle bit less. ACF can make decision just put here fix amount, lets say $500-$700 (this is unprove number indeed) and this will be a great help.

If not all players we have in mind can make it - expanses will be less indeed. Yet we have only confirmation from Chee and Fredo to come.

All players we are talking about have different finanial conditions - some have job, other - don't etc. This also will be taken in consideration.

Maybe ACF from now on make a straight decision - every year spend $500 (or any other amount) for such kind of expanses ?

Lets wait and see what Alan says and suggest.

All I know - ACF Executive Committee have full complete rights to spend money in any legitimate way if it doesn't go against Constitution and BY-LAWS. And Constitution says clearly about ACF goals and targets - promotion checkers in United States and Worldwide

Regards,

Alex

[Danny_Alvarez]

Thanks Bernard for showing your real face. Can I call you "Great Provocator"

I have to agree with Alex here.... Bernard, I'll comment a bit more on what you said.... but do you ever sit and go, what i have just said MIGHT be interpreted as a positive comment??? Geeez

You tell em Bernard! You're a force to be reckoned with!

.....Oh and checkers is a dying game that might be another reason.

......Acker you owe Kim an apology.

Josh, if Bernard is the Great Provocator you are his less witty Sideckick, dont you get tired of making sarcastic comments and being the official Apology Distribution Officer for this forum??? If there's an apology to be had or an argument to be made worst .... there you are.

.......If anything this will only help bring them back to tournaments and gain more membership.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, make more positive and constructive comments like this mate.... ill write a bit more in a second.

Under these very unfortunate changes it is extremely ridiculous to see any attempts to stop/block new (and very good) young players to come and join Federation.

Alex i couldnt agree more with you there. and it is sad that this has caused the usual reactions in this forum.

I think that we need to help these players who want to come to a tournament. I never said I was taking the money from dues or the ACF. But I will pay out of my pocket if necessary to get these players there. kim

Kim my admiration towards you grows and grows each and every day.
READ and re-read the above statement you BLIND fools!!!! and stop making wild statements trying to smear Kim's reputation.

Something stinks here. ACF are cashstrapped like other checker playing organisations. ....ACF members have the answer to this act of indeceny by their treasurer. 1- withhold their next contributions until this insanity stops. 2- Boycott any ACF tournament where this practice happens!

Great bloody idea Bernard, the ACF is a cashstrapped organization, stop paying your dues???? you want to have checkers only in Europe??? is that the bloody idea???? I find your comments Negative, ill-spirited and just aimed at causing trouble.

MY STATEMENT NOW .... no more quoting.
Checkers is in trouble, no doubt about it, not because of the lack of cash. (that might be a factor but not the main cause) The main reason why checkers is in trouble is because we always have people that sit in the sidelines and do nothing else than to fire criticism towards the organizations and nothing and everything that is done by their leaders is never enough or correct. Of course they always use money as the main way of cause division cause its the easiest way to find differing opinions.
I have said that before and i will say it again.... WE NEED TO UNITE.... we need to stand together and before we make wild statements, accusations and general criticisms that are negative and not constructive.... we should think, IS THIS GOING TO HELP THE GAME????
if the answer is no.... then maybe make those ideas known personally and privately to whomever is concerned.

Bringing these young players to a tournament is not only laudable but commendable and i would like other federations or associations to do the same. If we do not try to attract more people to the game it will not grow. I could very well be australian champion , if i held a tournament and nobody heard about it....but that would be laughable given my low checkers skill, when i hold an australian championship ill attempt to attract good quality players and lots of them.
If we keep alienating online players we will have no membership or future.

On a different note these players that attend and have their expenses paid for, should make every feasible effort to pay attend on their own next year. Or they should have certain responsabilities if they expect to receive help in 12 months time. My suggestion is attendance to 1 state tournament of their choice and ACF membership paid up to date.

Let's stop dividing and arguing all the time!!!

DO WE LOVE THE GAME???
let's show that with actions


Regards,
Danny Alvarez

[Alex_Moiseyev]

Prediction....The online players will do VERY VERY well in a real tourn.

Fifty-fifty. They will definetely do MUCH BETTER then some old sceptics and pessimist predict, but not as good as other optimist may think LOL ... So - it will be very surprising for everyone. Yes, Clint, Clay, Steve did extremely well in Majors and won it, but in Masters they never being on top 6 at first showup. Experience and knowledges are crucial and cannot be replace.

It is a fun online play, but not much fun and sometimes boring and painful in real play. Do not underestimate old crocodiles, they still didn't lose all their teeths ! Thats why I really want online players to come - they never saw such high psychological pressure before, but in other hands - I am sure they can handle it.

Adam said - not much money involve. True. But in other hands - he is a millionare ? Probably not and same with other players. But checkers is a great life hobby. You have it to the rest of your life and your co-workers and neghboors don't have it which makes your life much more interesting and richer.

Think about ...

I am betting on Fredo - he maybe in top 6. Not because he is better then Jolt or Ray, but he has better GAYP attitutude and control on his emotions which are MUST skills for GAYP.

Regards,

Alex

[Bernard Coll]

Thanks Bernard for showing your real face. Can I call you "Great Provocator"

I have to agree with Alex here.... Bernard, I'll comment a bit more on what you said.... but do you ever sit and go, what i have just said MIGHT be interpreted as a positive comment??? Geeez

You tell em Bernard! You're a force to be reckoned with!

.....Oh and checkers is a dying game that might be another reason.

......Acker you owe Kim an apology.

Josh, if Bernard is the Great Provocator you are his less witty Sideckick, dont you get tired of making sarcastic comments and being the official Apology Distribution Officer for this forum??? If there's an apology to be had or an argument to be made worst .... there you are.

.......If anything this will only help bring them back to tournaments and gain more membership.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, make more positive and constructive comments like this mate.... ill write a bit more in a second.

Under these very unfortunate changes it is extremely ridiculous to see any attempts to stop/block new (and very good) young players to come and join Federation.

Alex i couldnt agree more with you there. and it is sad that this has caused the usual reactions in this forum.

I think that we need to help these players who want to come to a tournament. I never said I was taking the money from dues or the ACF. But I will pay out of my pocket if necessary to get these players there. kim

Kim my admiration towards you grows and grows each and every day.
READ and re-read the above statement you BLIND fools!!!! and stop making wild statements trying to smear Kim's reputation.

Something stinks here. ACF are cashstrapped like other checker playing organisations. ....ACF members have the answer to this act of indeceny by their treasurer. 1- withhold their next contributions until this insanity stops. 2- Boycott any ACF tournament where this practice happens!

Great bloody idea Bernard, the ACF is a cashstrapped organization, stop paying your dues???? you want to have checkers only in Europe??? is that the bloody idea???? I find your comments Negative, ill-spirited and just aimed at causing trouble.

MY STATEMENT NOW .... no more quoting.
Checkers is in trouble, no doubt about it, not because of the lack of cash. (that might be a factor but not the main cause) The main reason why checkers is in trouble is because we always have people that sit in the sidelines and do nothing else than to fire criticism towards the organizations and nothing and everything that is done by their leaders is never enough or correct. Of course they always use money as the main way of cause division cause its the easiest way to find differing opinions.
I have said that before and i will say it again.... WE NEED TO UNITE.... we need to stand together and before we make wild statements, accusations and general criticisms that are negative and not constructive.... we should think, IS THIS GOING TO HELP THE GAME????
if the answer is no.... then maybe make those ideas known personally and privately to whomever is concerned.

Bringing these young players to a tournament is not only laudable but commendable and i would like other federations or associations to do the same. If we do not try to attract more people to the game it will not grow. I could very well be australian champion , if i held a tournament and nobody heard about it....but that would be laughable given my low checkers skill, when i hold an australian championship ill attempt to attract good quality players and lots of them.
If we keep alienating online players we will have no membership or future.

On a different note these players that attend and have their expenses paid for, should make every feasible effort to pay attend on their own next year. Or they should have certain responsabilities if they expect to receive help in 12 months time. My suggestion is attendance to 1 state tournament of their choice and ACF membership paid up to date.

Let's stop dividing and arguing all the time!!!

DO WE LOVE THE GAME???
let's show that with actions


Regards,
Danny Alvarez

Danny, thank you for your input. It is obvious to me that you did not spot the name-calling by Alex Moiseyev as a ploy to avoid answering the question I had put to him. He did reply when the question was put to him 2nd time.What I was seeking was answers to who would be footing the bill for these named players attendances. It looks as though the ACF nembers in general would be doing this. It is very, very easy tobegenerous with somebody else's money! Regards.

[Danny_Alvarez]

Danny, thank you for your input. It is obvious to me that you did not spot the name-calling by Alex Moiseyev as a ploy to avoid answering the question I had put to him. He did reply when the question was put to him 2nd time.What I was seeking was answers to who would be footing the bill for these named players attendances. It looks as though the ACF nembers in general would be doing this. It is very, very easy tobegenerous with somebody else's money! Regards.

Bernard i think honestly there are lots of people that avoid answering questions... and there is also a lot of name calling going around, but sometimes we should take the higher road ....

and i always believe there are 3 kinds of people..... ones that see a fire and put it out, ones that warm by the fire and watch, and some that throw gasoline on it.... all i am saying is lets put out as many fires as we can.

From what i read nothing untoward will be done with the ACF's money.
Hopefully the ACF will create a few more loyal members by helping them out this time.

cheers,
Danny Alvarez

[Danny_Alvarez]

Prediction....The online players will do VERY VERY well in a real tourn.

Fifty-fifty. They will definetely do MUCH BETTER then some old sceptics and pessimist predict, but not as good as other optimist may think LOL ... So - it will be very surprising for everyone. Yes, Clint, Clay, Steve did extremely well in Majors and won it, but in Masters they never being on top 6 at first showup. Experience and knowledges are crucial and cannot be replace.

It is a fun online play, but not much fun and sometimes boring and painful in real play. Do not underestimate old crocodiles, they still didn't lose all their teeths ! Regards,

Alex

I agree here they will do much better than what some of the old crocodiles (sorry Alex ill run with your analogy ) think but not as good as the youngins think they'll go. Overall i wish i could attend Alas i cannot. But i hope that regardless of RESULTS its a Positive experience for these young guys and that they come back for more

cheers,
Danny Alvarez

[Bernard Coll]

Danny, thank you for your input. It is obvious to me that you did not spot the name-calling by Alex Moiseyev as a ploy to avoid answering the question I had put to him. He did reply when the question was put to him 2nd time.What I was seeking was answers to who would be footing the bill for these named players attendances. It looks as though the ACF nembers in general would be doing this. It is very, very easy tobegenerous with somebody else's money! Regards.

Bernard i think honestly there are lots of people that avoid answering questions... and there is also a lot of name calling going around, but sometimes we should take the higher road ....

and i always believe there are 3 kinds of people..... ones that see a fire and put it out, ones that warm by the fire and watch, and some that throw gasoline on it.... all i am saying is lets put out as many fires as we can.

From what i read nothing untoward will be done with the ACF's money.
Hopefully the ACF will create a few more loyal members by helping them out this time.

cheers,
Danny Alvarez

Danny, and all other contributors to this topic, I honestly believe that the ACF are only deluding themselves in thinking that these "live online players" are the future of real life tournament competitions. I am as enthusiastic about checkers/draughts as anybody. I have not made a penny out of this game, as many other true spirited players know full well, counting time off work, travelling and accommodation costs. At the end of the tourney most players have won nothing. Even those players in the prize list are well out of pocket! BUT they keep coming back because of their love for the game! The point I am making here is that once these online players realise that the ACF or any other draughts organisation are actually bending over backwards, paying their travel and accommodation expenses,also promising greatly enhanced prize fund just for the privilege of their attendance is the wrong approach. Starters, where does the enhanced prize fund come from? Next thing. OK, you have enticed these players to attend. A commendable achievement, I agree. Problem which I and many interested observers foresee is when you inform these players that they have to pay their own way next year there is going to be a NO SHOW. ACF members' money gone down the pan in my opinion

[kiwinurse]

I can only agree with Bernard in this,hes absolutely right.And what is being proposed is actually discriminating with the countless of other good players that cant get to play financially.Where do you draw the line with your ACF members?How many disgruntled people would withdraw ACF membership,when they themselves have never been helped. Fine if individual members want to donate towards a fund specifically for the online players to attend.Nothing wrong with that. But touching ACF funding is just a case of financial mismanagement.

[adamjohnson]

Alex im not interested in tournaments, its not only because of the small prize money. Its just due to the fact it doesn't interest me, i like to play checkers at night time as a hobby that's it.

Just like when i done boxing, running, there hobbies i did enjoy but i'd never want to become an olympic runner, boxer. I just liked doing it because its something i enjoy, just like checkers.

Plus im busy with other stuff as i've said before. Im trying to become a lifeguard, aswell as other stuff.

If the other online players want to go to a tournament that's great, but its not for me. I don't want to prove myself to anyone, i know im a good player and can compete with some good players. That's good enough for me, its just a good way to pass the time at night.

But as i said im really not interested in tournament's at all.