Searching for a game

[Hugh Devlin]

In “The Wonderful World of Checkers and Draughts” (by T. Wiswell & J. Leopold 1980, p79) there is a claim that A.H. Richardson and E. A. Durgin of Massachusetts, USA played a game lasting 228 moves. However there is no mention of where or when this game was played, and no record of the moves made. Can anyone throw any light on this? I’ve contacted Jim Loy but he has no record of it. Hugh

[jaguar72]

This will be of no help whatsoever, but I'll mention it anyway: in the book Fifth American Checker Tourney Boston, Mass 1922, copyright 1923, there is listed in the first and second rounds a H. W. Durgin from Boston, Mass. The name doesn't show up after round 2.

There is a short biography which reads in part: Herbert W. Durgin. Is president of the Wells Memorial Checker Club in Boston, where he is regarded as a class A player.

Asa Long, from Toledo, Ohio (!), won, of course.

A unique and unusual game like that is the kind of thing Irving Chernev would have mentioned in The Compleat Draughts Player if he had known of it, but he doesn't.

V/R,

Gary Jenkins/jaguar72

[Alex_Moiseyev]

lasting 228 moves.

228 white moves and 228 red moves (228 full moves) ... or 114 white moves and 114 red moves (228 half moves) ?

[Jay H]

E.A. Durgin was a contributor to American Checker Monthly's news columns on occasion.....perhaps it was published in there.
I'll check when I can,it may be a good place to start....

Regards

Jay H

[Jay H]

Whooops...sorry brother.....My memory is beginning to go in my old age...
E.R. Durgin was a contributor to ACM...
Intersetingly enough ,E. A. Durgin and E.R. Durgin are both from the New England area...I don't believe they are the same person.
I have a book signed by E.R Durgin signed in 1940...I also have other info on him.
E.A. Durgin is mentioned in the pages of Canadian Checker Player in 1910...that he had a "marked fondness for the Edinburgh...through a long activity at the game he remained partial to 9-13 and made that move against all comers at all odds....." That should narrow it down somewhat...
The article goes on to state that some 9-13 2-2-18 10-15 play by Durgin is given in Lee's Guide............
Best I can do for you right now......can;t look much further at the time...I am in recovery mode....

Jay "Hope this helps" H

[Ingo_Zachos]

lasting 228 moves.

228 white moves and 228 red moves (228 full moves) ... or 114 white moves and 114 red moves (228 half moves) ?

Good question.
In chess, a move istraditionally defined by the rules as a white ply ( "half-move") and a black reply.
So 1. e2-e4 is not a move, but a ply.
But 1. e2-e4 d7-d6 is one move.

That is, because problem competiions needed a clar definition what "mate in two moves" meant.

In checkers/draughts it is the same in draughts 100 and draughts 64.
Only our game is a bit odd here.

11-15 23-18 8-11 is sometimes refered to as three (!) moves, like, most prominent in the term "3-move restriction".
On the other hand the 40 move counts is applied as in the chess rules.

Traditionally, in Checkers, move numbers are not given in the books.

It looks like
11-15
23-18
8-11

while in chess you would write
1. 11-15 23-18
2.8-11 ... (to indicate that the move is not complete)

in recent times this system has more support, as PDN uses move numbers like in chess.

I strongly advocate to use move numbers as in chess even in future books, as it is easier to track misprints, and much easier to refer to a move in a discussion if u know the move number.
But maybe I am just pampered by my habits from chess.

I would presume that 228 moves refers to the same meaning of move then in "3-move", so it would be 114 red and 114 white moves.

To me that does not seem much.
I have played a chess game myself in the older days of adjourned games taking 12 hours and more then 200 moves (203 moves and drawn in the end)
It was played on three different days over two weeks and I played it at the local youth city championships.

I would guess that 400 moves of old counting ( 200 in PDN style) would be possible in Checkers as well, so 228 is ppl. not the end of the line.

A Game Hellmann-Ryan, 1939 US nationals (NCA) had 120 moves in PDN or, as red made the last ply, 241 if you count each play as a move, which then would be more then the game Durgin - Richardson.

In my books and databases this is the longest game I found so far.


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Edwin A. Durgin was born on August 3rd 1863 in Jersey City, as I recently read by chance in my edition of Stearns Book of Portraits, Volume 2, that I sometimes crossread for fun.

On page 130 there is even a picture of Mr. Durgin.
It seems he also had a large library that he donated to the Brooklyn library, as many books I bought from L'Esprit are from the old stock of that library, and in some books there is a stamp/label on the front pages saying it is from the E.A.Durgin collection.

He seems to have been more then a class A player,
so ppl. Herbert W. Durgin is a different player and not the one Hugh looks for.

He made eight consecutive draws with Wyllie and had good scores against the likes of Heffner, Freeman and Barker, though he is said to have been an amateur, ie not involved in stake matches and the like.

I will try to take a look at my US checker magazines before 1900 or close to 1900 up until WW I.

Chances are food either to find it, or to fimd out where and when it was played, and who A.H. Richardson was.

In Stearns Book Of Portraits, Volume 2 there is a A.J. Richardson on page 179, but the initials are different, and as in Durgins case they seem to be quite correct,so it is lkely that A.H. Richardson is another player, but maybe it is worthwhile to check the names of problem composers in Gould's Problems etc. for A.H. Richardson.

Greetinx from rainy and cold Dortmund, Germany,

Ingo Zachos

[Hugh Devlin]

Many thanks Jay, Gary, and Ingo. All info is useful.

In reply to Alex's question I wrote this as it is quoted in the book referenced, so therefore I take it that it was a combined total of 228 moves (i.e 114 each). Contrary to Ingo's comment it had to be this way as the longest game (combined moves) ever played in US Nt. ty history is only a little longer than this figure. Let me give you the following to illuminate this:

"If we take the recent A. Moiseyev – R. King WCM 2009 as an example of modern play it gives us some interesting statistics. We note that over the 40 games contested the total number of moves (combined) made in each game ranged from just 14 moves (shortest) to 148 moves (longest), with an average game lasting a combined 59 moves. In this match there were just 2 games (5%) that exceeded a combined 100 moves, and 16 games (40%) which had a combined total of just 50 moves or less. From this we can deduct that games that last more than a combined 100 moves are rare, over 150 moves are rarer still, and games lasting over 200 moves are extremely rare."

Personally I don't have access to a lot of the early US publications and therefore have difficulty researching this Richardson - Durgin game. Please don't give up - I'm confident that someone will find it! Hugh

[Palomino]

Earlier today, after reading this I call Al Darrow as he a very good source for such information.

Al thought this to be a very interesting question.

Given to the fact that he is recovering from recent surgery he can't give the matter his full strength but said he would search his library for the answer as best he can and given a bit of time.

Off the top of his head Al told me that E. A. (Edwin) Durgin was the Checkers Editor of the Boston Globe newspaper and that he was also the author of Durgin's Single Corner.

I found the following in the online version of W.T. Call's "Literature of Checkers"

153
"Durgin's Single Corner. Chicago, 1894. There are 160 pages in this book, of which forty-six pages are devoted to Durgin's compilation on the 12-16, 18-14 line. The remaining pages contain detached games on various lines of the Single Corner and includes forty pages of Switcher play, which embraces analysis by Swan and Adamson."
By Edwin A. Durgin
"Now worth seventy-five cents a copy." http://books.google.com/books?id=4Nk8AA ... &q&f=false

Al did pull his copy of “The Wonderful World of Checkers and Draughts” and after turning to page 79 and reading this claim of the 228 move game, noted it was followed by "(J.L.)" and wondered if this could be a reference to James Lee.

[jaguar72]

He seems to have been more then a class A player,
so ppl. Herbert W. Durgin is a different player and not the one Hugh looks for.

Right you are, Ingo. I knew he was not the right one. The only "hits" were the last name and the state of residence (Massachusetts) which was the only information included in the original citation in the Wiswell book (BTW, Leopold supplied what information there is in a footnote; the "J.L." is a reference to him); I only thought he could possibly be a relative. I don't know how common the name "Durgin" is in the U.S.

H.W. Durgin was good enough to play in the Fifth American Checker Tourney but with no success.

Anyhow, I thought it would do no harm to post the information.

V/R,

Gary Jenkins/jaguar72

[Palomino]

Gary wrote:

(BTW, Leopold supplied what information there is in a footnote; the "J.L." is a reference to him)

Gary, I guess Al and I didn't give much thought to that question, did we? Ha,ha.

[Alex_Moiseyev]

Hugh, I think they played 144 white and 144 red moves totalling 288. For 15 years practice and over 2,000 games I played only few long games over 100 full moves. Oldbury played one time with Tinsley long game in their match. 288 full moves looks a bit unrealistic.

[jaguar72]

Gary wrote:

(BTW, Leopold supplied what information there is in a footnote; the "J.L." is a reference to him)

Gary, I guess Al and I didn't give much thought to that question, did we? Ha,ha.

Oh, I don't know, Pal...I do similar things frequently (which my wife never tires of pointing out to me...).

As far as the game goes, if neither Jim Loy nor Al Darrow know about it, that baby may well be lost forever. Those guys are good.

V/R,

Gary Jenkins/jaguar72

[Palomino]

For anyone interested,

Click the below link and you can read "DURGIN's SINGLE CORNER" online. (Google Books)

http://books.google.com/books?id=5r1MAA ... &q&f=false

[Jason Solan]

This is a bit off topic as I don't have any information about the game in question, but...

Just as an FYI the longest game we currently have in the ACF archive is
236 plys
Between Hellman and Banks at the U.S. National 1958

Even more interesting to me is that only 1 position occurs twice in this game, all others are unique.

[pdn][Event "U.S. National 1958"] [Black "Banks, N."] [White "Hellman, W."] [Date "1958"] [Result "0-1"] 11-16 23-18 7-11 18-15 11-18 22-15 10-19 24-15 8-11 15-8 4-11 25-22 6-10 22-17 3-7 29-25 1-6 17-13 11-15 28-24 16-20 32-28 7-11 25-22 10-14 22-17 14-18 24-19 15-24 28-19 18-22 27-23 22-25 23-18 6-10 13-6 2-9 18-14 9-18 19-16 12-19 26-23 18-27 31-8 10-15 17-13 25-29 21-17 15-19 8-3 19-23 3-7 20-24 7-10 23-27 10-15 27-31 15-18 31-27 17-14 24-28 13-9 28-32 18-22 27-23 9-6 23-19 6-1 32-27 22-18 19-23 18-22 23-19 1-6 19-15 6-9 27-23 9-13 23-27 13-17 27-23 22-26 23-19 17-22 19-16 26-23 16-11 23-18 15-19 14-10 5-9 10-6 19-15 6-1 15-10 22-17 11-7 1-5 9-13 18-22 7-11 5-9 11-7 9-14 10-6 14-18 6-10 17-21 7-11 30-26 10-15 26-23 15-10 23-19 11-7 18-15 10-6 19-16 7-10 15-11 6-2 16-12 10-7 11-15 7-3 15-18 2-7 18-23 7-10 23-26 10-14 26-30 14-10 21-17 10-15 17-14 15-11 14-10 11-16 10-15 16-20 30-26 20-24 26-23 24-20 23-27 20-16 27-32 16-20 15-19 20-16 19-24 16-20 32-27 20-16 24-20 16-19 20-16 19-15 27-24 15-10 24-27 10-14 16-19 14-10 27-31 10-14 19-23 14-10 23-18 10-7 18-15 7-2 31-26 2-6 26-23 3-7 23-18 7-10 15-19 6-9 12-8 10-14 19-23 14-17 23-26 17-21 8-3 21-25 26-30 25-21 3-7 21-17 30-26 17-14 18-23 14-17 7-11 17-21 26-30 21-17 23-26 17-21 11-15 9-6 26-31 6-9 15-18 9-5 18-14 5-1 31-27 1-5 27-23 5-1 23-18 1-5 18-15 5-1 15-10 1-5 10-6 5-1 6-9 1-5 14-17 5-14 17-10 21-17 10-15 17-26 30-23 13-17 15-10 17-22 10-14 22-25 0-1[/pdn]

[Ingo_Zachos]

Jason, this leaves Hellmann - Ryan, 1939 US nationals (NCA) , Round 8, Game 6, page 115 ff. in the tournament book as the longest recoded game so far.

It was a draw.

Other games that lasted 100 (PDN count) or 200 (ply count) moves were:

Martins-Wyllie, WCM 1867, game 55 (Martins won with red)
Wyllie-Brayen, Glasgow 1886, game 2 (draw)
Banks-Hellmann, 1958 US nationals (Hellmann won with white)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have a database with now 97.000 games, and it has about 800 games with 50 (PDN count) moves, and this 4 games and 3 from computer competitions that lasted 100 moves (PDN count).

There were ppl. a lot more, as many games were only recoded to a position in which "White went on to win many moves later", ie it was 67 moves, but maybe 100, depending on the technical phase of the game.

In chess, there are games with 200 moves and more, even close to 300 (PDN count).
I would not call this impossible in Checkers, but rare, very rare.

Any game above 100 (PDN count) is indeed only a very small fraction of all master games.
Might be a master never plays one in a lifetime.

They are rare birds like a 9 darts finish.


Greetinx from rainy Dortmund,

Ingo Zachos


[Black "Hellman, W."]
[White "Ryan, W.F."]
[Event "US National (NCA)"]
[Site ""]
[Round ""]
[Date "1939"]
[Result "1-1"]
[GameType "21"]

1. 10-15 22-18 2. 15x22 25x18 3. 09-13 24-19 4. 11-15 18x11 5. 08x24 28x19
6. 04-08 29-25 7. 08-11 25-22 8. 06-10 23-18 9. 02-06 26-23 10. 13-17 22x13
11. 10-15 19x10 12. 06x22 21-17 13. 07-10 27-24 14. 01-06 32-27 15. 03-07
23-18 16. 12-16 27-23 17. 10-15 24-20 18. 06-10 18-14 19. 15-18 13-09 20.
18x27 31x24 21. 10-15 09-06 22. 15-18 17-13 23. 22-26 30x23 24. 18x27 06-02
25. 27-32 02-06 26. 05-09 14x05 27. 32-28 05-01 28. 28x19 01-05 29. 19-15
05-09 30. 15-18 06-02 31. 18-15 02-06 32. 15-18 06-02 33. 18-15 02-06 34.
15-18 06-02 35. 18-15 09-14 36. 15-10 14-17 37. 16-19 13-09 38. 10-06 09-05
39. 06-01 17-22 40. 19-23 22-18 41. 23-26 18-23 42. 26-30 23-19 43. 30-26
19-16 44. 26-22 16-12 45. 22-18 12-08 46. 11-16 02x11 47. 16-19 11-07 48.
18-14 08-11 49. 19-24 20-16 50. 14-09 07-10 51. 24-28 11-15 52. 28-32 16-11
53. 09-06 11-08 54. 06-09 08-04 55. 32-27 15-18 56. 27-32 04-08 57. 32-28
08-11 58. 28-32 10-15 59. 09-13 18-22 60. 32-28 15-18 61. 28-32 11-15 62.
13-09 15-19 63. 09-13 19-23 64. 13-09 22-17 65. 09-13 18-22 66. 32-28 23-27
67. 13-09 17-13 68. 09-06 27-23 69. 28-24 22-17 70. 24-28 17-22 71. 28-24
22-18 72. 24-28 23-27 73. 28-32 18-23 74. 32-28 23-18 75. 28-32 27-23 76.
32-28 18-22 77. 28-24 22-17 78. 24-28 23-18 79. 28-24 18-14 80. 24-19 14-09
81. 06-02 17-22 82. 19-15 13-17 83. 02-07 22-26 84. 07-02 17-14 85. 02-07
26-23 86. 07-02 23-27 87. 02-07 27-24 88. 07-02 24-20 89. 02-07 20-16 90.
07-02 16-12 91. 02-07 14-17 92. 07-03 09-14 93. 03-07 14-09 94. 07-03 17-14
95. 03-07 12-16 96. 07-02 16-20 97. 02-07 20-24 98. 07-11 24-27 99. 11-07
27-31 100. 07-11 31-26 101. 11-07 26-22 102. 07-02 22-26 103. 02-07 26-22
104. 07-02 22-26 105. 02-07 26-22 106. 07-02 22-26 107. 02-07 26-31 108.
07-02 31-27 109. 02-07 27-24 110. 07-02 24-20 111. 02-07 20-16 112. 07-02
16-12 113. 02-07 14-17 114. 07-03 17-22 115. 03-07 22-26 116. 07-02 26-23
117. 15-10 23-18 118. 10-06 09-13 119. 06-09 13x06 120. 02x09 1-1