11 man ballott WCM 2011

[liam stephens]

WORLD 11 - MAN BALLOT MATCHES 1974 - 90

1. 1974 K Grover v D Oldbury 2 - 6 - 9
2. 1986 D. Oldbury v R. Hallett 3 - 4 - 13
3. 1987 R. Hallett v E. Lowder 2 - 4 - 13
4. 1989 E. Lowder v H. Devlin 6 - 1 - 9
5. 1990 E. Lowder v L Levitt 5 - 1 - 11

[Alex_Moiseyev]

JR / Liam,

I just analyzed situation carefully based on list of events. It seems like JR list of Champions (without Long name) is accurate, because Oldbury beated Grover in 1974 and took title. Long match and victory over Grover in 1975 has nothing to do with World Title !

Obviously important and great history research and accomplishment. Maybe Jim Loy has to add this list of champions & events to the next edition of his "11-man ballot" book.

Alex

[Alex_Moiseyev]

This is quite funny ... According JR list of events - I am Sixth (!!!!!!!!) 11-man ballot World Champion

Here is my reconstruction of events regarding 11 man ballott title.

===============================================================================

1. 1917, N. Banks vs A. Jordan, Cedar Point, OH, USA, August 6-13, 5-2-11, N. Banks - 1st World Champion

2. 1928, N. Banks vs A. Long, 7-5-28, Banks retained title

3. 1966, N. Banks vs W. Van Leer, Detorit, MI, USA, September, 5-0-11, N. Banks retained title

4. 1969, N. Banks vs K. Grover, Detroit, MI, USA, November 27-December 4, 3-2-19, K. Grover - 2nd World Champion

5. 1972, K. Grover vs R. Martin, Seattle, WA, USA, May 10, 5-5-22, K. Grover retained title

6. 1974, K. Grover vs D. Oldbury, Philadelphia, PA, USA, July 8-12, 6-2-9, D. Oldbury - 3rd World Champion

7. 1986, D. Oldbury v R. Hallett, Poghkeepie, NY, USA, September 26, 3 - 4 - 13, R. Hallett - 4th World Champion

8. 1987, R. Hallett v E. Lowder, Sanford, NC, USA, September 21-26, 2 - 4 - 13, E. Lowder - 5th World Champion

9. 1989, E. Lowder v H. Devlin, 6 - 1 - 9, E. Lowder retained title

10. 1990, E. Lowder v L Levitt, September 25-29, 5 - 1 - 11, E. Lowder retained title

11. 2002, E. Lowder vs A. Moiseyev, Richmond, KY, USA, October 11-14, 6-6-8, E. Lowder retained title

in 2006 E. Lowder passed away

12. 2008, A. Moiseyev vs T. Laverty, NC, USA, July, 5-0-7, A. Moiseyev - 6th World Champion

13. 2011, A. Moiseyev vs T. Laverty, Greensboro, NC, USA, May 27-29, 5-0-7, A. Moiseyev retained title

=================================================================================

Newell Banks retained his title for 52 years. If I want to beat this record - I have to live more than 100 years. Hmmmm ...

[JR Smith]

ACFB # 131 October 1974 Inside front cover of this issue list Kenneth Grover as the 11-Man Match Champion and Asa Long as the 11-Man Tourney Champion

In 1975 a 11-Man Ballot World Title Match - Lakeside, OH - 8/4-8 Asa Long defeated Kenneth Grover 4-2-13. The purse was $2,000 ACFB Oct 1975 stated Long as the 11-Man Champion since he held both the Tourney and World Match Title.

No one could possibly say Long was an 11-Man Ballot World Champion when Derek Oldbury traveled to USA and defeated Kenneth Grover in 1974 at an 11-Man Ballot World Championship Match in Philadelphia, PA on July 8-12, 1974. Asa Long is the US 11-Man Ballot World Match Title Champion but never the 11-Man Ballot World Champion. In fact, the records show much effort went into staging a match numerous times over the 12 years between Long & Oldbury but Long just wouldn't play. Many believed Long would win! Finally in 1986 Asa Long officially declined Oldbury's challenge through EDA and ACF. This brought about the Hallet vs Oldbury WCM sanctioned by EDA and ACF.

You can review the time-line for more details: http://www.nccheckers.org/NCCA/11-Man%2 ... onship.htm

[Alex_Moiseyev]

Some players on Russian checkers site already started analysng games

[Alex_Moiseyev]

White to move

Game 2. A. Moiseyev vs T. Laverty

Tim played here 1. ... 24-20? and lost after 2. 6-9 28-24 3. 10-14 24-19 4. 7-10 31-26 5. 2-7 32-28 6. 4-8 27-24 7. 1-6* etc

My opponents on Russian checkers site stated that 24-20?? move is absoulutely unacceptable and doesn't fit into high level standarads of the World Championship status of events. I told them that even after 23-19 or 24-19 all game is still ahead and Tim move 24-20 is not a child level mistake.

Do you agree with me or my opponents ?

Alex

[Danny_Alvarez]

i think 24-20 is a losing move.... but then again i dont have the level of expertise you have Alex.

cheers

[Alex_Moiseyev]

Danny, we know that 24-20? is a loss. But my question was different: my opponents stated that Tim didn't give me enough competition and level of match games was low. They said that identical and high margin score in oth matches 2008 & 2011 indicates this.

I disagree with them. Tim is one of the best 11 man ballot player, he was a winner of 2008 USA National and runner up in 2011.

This great style is not promoted well, true, but it didn't have any influence on the quality of games we played.

[Eric Strange]

looking from whites side.... 24-20 at first glance does seem like a great move. even looking a couple moves in seems 24-20 is strong. I actually played this vs cake from white and 14 moves later I lose because I am 1 move off.

Seriously... from checkers instinct 24-20 looks like the strongest move without analyzing deep into it. Your russian friends who are analyzing games and judging who is wcm material. have them come see us at kurnik and see how they do

[Jay H]

Your russian friends who are analyzing games and judging who is wcm material. have them come see us at kurnik and see how they do

Love it when the gauntlet is thrown down
If this happens, post the time and date....I ( and I am sure some other ACForumites !!) would love to come and watch.......

Jay " " H

[Danny_Alvarez]

i think it is kind of unfair to judge the quality of a tournament or a player on a couple of moves or a couple of games anyway

[Alex_Moiseyev]

In general we are 1.0-1.5 days behind dispute on Russian checkers site which makes sense. Before we moved to the 2nd opening there is one more position from 1st opening I want to mention.

Red to move

G1, G2

This position occured in both games after openings moves and quite obvious (?) trade 2 for 2 which me and Tim prefered. In position on diagram we took different paths. Due to omitting white "Amex piece" on 26 and white left flank get corrupted, I choose to raise pressure on this weak spot by playing 5-9, 7-10, 3-7, 9-13. I think my choice was more accurate and proper keeping an advantage and pressure on white position to the rest of game.

Instead, Tim played 8-11, 25-22, 7-10, 22-18 and then after 10-15, 18-14 position completely equalized leaving red with nothing but draw with care of. My Russian friends forgot to mention that this was another Tim inaccuracy (in my eyes) and I told them. This is not a childish missing indeed but just missing opportunity and minimazing chances. If you do it one-two-more times during match course, sooner or later it's transformed into serious advantage and points.

BTW. Do you think Tim attacking plan 8-11, 7-10 has it's merits ? To be honest - I think so but still beleive my plan was more promising. Playing Tim moves the program actually still shows some edge for him, however I felt comfortable during the game under this scenario.

===================================================================================

I don't blame my Russian friends. It is Russian nature to show a low respect to anyone and anything and never being regret for this. In fact - they also blamed some players from recently finished 10x10 World Championship with alot of short boring draws and games played in 5 minutes.

Some of them have experience in Anglo-American Checkers, other have experience playin in World class events.

I also would like to mention that logically we first should start this dispute and analyze games on this site dedicated to Anglo-American checkers, and not only examine final standing cross table !

So ... we still can learn something from our Russian speaking colleagues

But as I stated, I think match games were at high quality.

We will continue analyze to the rest ALL match games. Today I will try to post something about Game 4 and maybe Game 3 and see ohter missing opportunities.

Some of you shouldn't wait me or Russian players. You can move ahead and post your analyses / comments here to show complexity of our games / moves. Tim can make in specific game one bad move and 10-15 good and excellent moves. That would be good prove.

[Alex_Moiseyev]

Red to move

G3. A. Moiseyev vs T. Laverty

Before position on diagram, Tim played 22-17? which loses (31-26 was correct).

Here is a good prove that noone is perect. In position on diagram I missed a win by playing 8-12? Instead, 1. 5-9 17-13 2. 8-12 13x6 3. 2x9 31-26 4. 9-13 27-24 5. 11-15 26-22 6. 17-13 13x22 7. 15-18 etc, Red Wins

In Game #3 I played 8-12? instead 5-9 and after 31-26 if red plays 5-9 white drew the game by 19-15* 11x18 17-13 etc Draw Tim saw this indeed and game finished with draw.

My Russian friends missed this win in their blamings and only mentioned Tim blunder in the next game #4. But this game and my missing is a good prove that both players made mistakes in match - due to high psychological presuure.

Alex

[tommyc]

The 11 man ballot is just a waste of time ,its not draughts full stop.Strike it off the list its an abomination and a waste of time and money.

[Alex_Moiseyev]

its not draughts

Give me definition of draughts