gamesite?

[AKA]

...

Extremely well said, Clay !

There are two types of knoweldges in game of draughts. One comes from book study (including programs opening books) ==> just read and memorize. Second type - from practice - just play and memorize. There shouldn't be any disproportion, and both sources must be use to build your own "opening database" If people ignore one of those sources - their knowledges somehow are limited and miss a big pieces of puzzle.

Good portion of my knpoweldges came from Internet and regular tournament play (there is no difference for me), other portion - from regular study.


Regards,

Alex

You should do more play than reading to improve. That is 100% fact. Players who play 200-500 games a week like the average online player will eventually pass up the offline players who read books and don't play except for the tournaments once a month(at most).

If the best 5 online players played a team match against 5 offline players in a combined match of blitz and untimed, I have my money on the online team to win more games. This could happen at Kurnik.

Alex, Nash, Patrick, are you up for this?

[Alex_Moiseyev]

You should do more play than reading to improve.

No, I totally disagree with this. Proportion must be balanced as even, or study & analyses took 60+%.

If the best 5 online players played a team match against 5 offline players in a combined match of blitz and untimed, I have my money on the online team to win more games. This could happen at Kurnik.

Igor, can you specify - how much money you bet ?

Alex, Nash, Patrick, are you up for this?

Unfortunately - "untimed" is not exactly the same, as "real". Not because of cheating, but for many other reasons. Even if I play online G/60 games - it's always not exactly the same when I play in tournament room on real board and can face my opponent.

Talking about "match of century"

Patrick is very good player, no questions, but not in Master Class yet. If we replace him by Clint Olsen, play 3 moves or 11 man ballot, and fast games 3/2 or 2/2 (no faster) - I don't know, how many draws "online genious" could afford.

Respectfully,

Alex Moiseyev

[bazkitcase5]

You should do more play than reading to improve. That is 100% fact. Players who play 200-500 games a week like the average online player will eventually pass up the offline players who read books and don't play except for the tournaments once a month(at most).

If the best 5 online players played a team match against 5 offline players in a combined match of blitz and untimed, I have my money on the online team to win more games. This could happen at Kurnik.

Alex, Nash, Patrick, are you up for this?

Sorry, but you are seriously mistaken. If you are talking about a minor level player, then probably yes, they should play more than study. However, playing is not enough once you get to the masters division, I know this from experience.

I started out playing online, for some 2 years before I ever entered my first real tournament. So I have spent my time playing 200 or so games a week. Most of that time was spent playing blitz, but again, there is a "limit" to how much you can improve until you hit a wall. When you play blitz, your basically only exercising instinct skills and tactical skills. There is not enough time to "calculate" strategy, and look a certain # of moves ahead, etc. In the masters, this ability to look ahead accurately is incredibly vital. There is so much more in checkers than just tactics.

Not to mention, that if these "online" players are so much better, then why are they not world champions or state champions... or for that matter, why are they not going to tournaments to show off how good they are.

But... if you want to find the 5 best offline players, we'll be at Nationals and Alan will have clocks there, so we can play blitz too.

[Alex_Moiseyev]

I am OK with online match for one simple reason - I don't consider and count it seriously at all. But it's cool and good for fun. It doesn't prove anything for me.

Igor, if you (and other online players) really want to imrpove your crossboard abilities, I would recommend you to start from problems books, and try to solve problems. Many good problems books are available - Heffner, Gould, Lyman etc

Maximum real ACF rating you can reach by playing online - around 2100-2200. Anything over this requires regular study and play in real tournaments.

By the way ... you and some other Kurnik players are using consistantly the word - KIDS. Don't be wrong with this. In 10x10 and Russian checkers if you started at 7-10 years, at age 15 you already can hit a master bareer and in 18-20 - grandmaster. So ... 15-17 years old doesn't sound like a KID for me when we are talking about checkers.

If you are 20, play online 3-4 years, learned Old 14th, Souter and Witcher, beat occasionly good players on timer, blunders or suspicious experiments - still not enough. There is nothing to be proud of.

Another legend I heard why online players don't come to real ty's - not enough prices and doesn't cover gas expenses. For me such arguments don't make any sense and look like just an attempt to find a reasonable excuse.

Yet, none of online players, who started to play in real ty's, was very successful on the first attempt. [Clay can prove this ]

Regards,

Alex

[Ingo_Zachos]

If the best 5 online players played a team match against 5 offline players in a combined match of blitz and untimed, I have my money on the online team to win more games. This could happen at Kurnik.

Alex, Nash, Patrick, are you up for this?

No, a match can only be played across a board if you want to prove that online playing does produce better players then the best players of today, not at kurnik or anywhere online.
And it have to be timed games with a time rate of say, 30 moves per hour.
Of course with a referee and spectators as well as recording the games, keep silence and sticking to the rules.

I would not bet my money on the "online" team.
Would you?

I believe you want all players to play on your conditions with advantages that are not your own merit.
In Germany we call this kind of playing for undeserved wins "zocken".
If you want to prove that you r superior, you must go out and prove it, or your claims will be nothing but shattered dreams.

Another clue for you: in matches and tournaments you must plan and calculate. Speed and mouse skills won't count at all, in fact speed leads to hastily decisions that turn out to be wrong most of the time.
Also you will feel the tension that a ticking clock and a tournament athmosphere provide.
No online game can ever match this experience.

Gary Kasparov once said : "Playing online is like cheap prostitution and many players behave like that on the internet."

[Alex_Moiseyev]

Igor, think about ... Three different people - me, Clayton Nash and Ingo Zachos: different nationality, different age, different level in checkers. And we all are talking about the same thing. Neither of us wants just "to win a dispute". I am very confident - Clay, Ingo (and of course myself) want to help you (and other young players) to understand things better, and we want to motivate you "start thinking".

But the core point is - do you like checkers and want to make it your "life hobby" ? If so - our suggestions may help you. Otherwise, if you play just for fun and some day quit checkers, after going to college and getting married - then it is another story.

I feel myself very rich that God gifted me with such wonderful thing in my life - chance to play checkers and enjoy. I am sure - most if not all other players who joined checkers to the rest of their life - think the same way.

regards,

Alex

[AKA]

Y
et, none of online players, who started to play in real ty's, was very successful on the first attempt. [Clay can prove this ]

Regards,

Alex

Actually, in the last 2-3 years, online players did very well in their first attempt. I think Kevin Burks was the last online player to play in a real tournament (VA state tournament in 2005) and finished 1st place with ease. 24 points, 2nd place had 16 points. There are many others who finished top 1-3 in their first attempt: Yunior Lopez- 2nd place in division, Heath Pearson-1st place in division, Mike Fulkerson-1st place in division. Dale Rumpf...David Dunlap, Anthony Tramentano- 1st place in division on 2nd ty 2005 nats.

It is actually proven, that online players do very well on their first attempt without even touching a checkers book.

I agree that reading books and study is important. But players should put what they learned into play, and I don't think enough offline players do this.

[bazkitcase5]

why do u insist on arguing something that u apparently do not know much about?

none of the players u named did well in a masters division - the masters division is an entirely different animal

kevin is a good player, i have played him in slow games online, but he is not a master player and the tournament he won was against mid majors at best - his biggest competition for that tournament would have been les balderson, who unfortunately passed away b4 the tournament happened

the most impressive of the ones u named was probably dale rumpf, who won majors at TN, and who alex could tell u a lot more about
he is a good player, but did u bother to look at the results for the next TN tournament when he played masters? he finished 14th of 15

most online players i talk to consider heath pearson the best online player they know and he is a friend of mine, who will tell u that he is not a master (altho i believe he is a strong major), but the division he won at nationals was minors, the weakest of the 3 divisions in tournament play...

anthony also won a minors division... yunior tied for 2nd in a minors division... mike fulkerson won a B class division, that consisted of only minor players

there is no doubt that these players u named are good - some of them are very good, but there is a huge difference between good minor or good major and best in the world

infact, this backs up my point even more - these players got to their skill level playing timed games (atleast i'm assuming) - now they have reached their "limit" and to become masters, they need to start playing slow games and studying books - mastering tactics is only half the battle

"I agree that reading books and study is important. But players should put what they learned into play, and I don't think enough offline players do this."

i agree players should put what they have learned into play, but they have to learn something first... and saying that online time players r some of the best in the world is well, rather stupid

[Patrick Parker]

frankly
i played at pogo ....sadly i played at pogo for 5 years
it was always a crossboard game....but who i was playing made me
a weak player

so online isnt so much the best just based on that
i am not trying to be mean really i am not
but part of why i play so bad now is because of such a long period of online playing ....playing 1 minute games at pogo
and hopefully i have improved since i started playing in tournaments

also my tournament games ....when i lose usually i play maybe 2 weak moves in a game to lose ....and i do lose

online i play 5 published loses and win a game so cant say i am getting better that way

but how everyone is saying play your friends, people you know
they are talking about people from tournaments they have met
like me i play people around my level and when i can people who are better than me

but like i said before at illinois this coming week
we will show some of the acf members how to cheat at kurnik
we can even do it at kurnik
anywho
if u ever want to play online just pm me

[ae_ted]

Patric, I look foward to seeing you at Ill. I agree with Clayton. I'V seen online cheating since zone had a ladder(long time ago) I have had the pleasure on waatching most of the young tournament players develop. I am what happens without book study, you simply cannot progress to high levels in checkers without it. I agree there are some outstanding young talent out there. BUT the ones that have and will progress are ones that are willing to put the work into study and play real tourns to improve. I play for fun and will never reach that higher level because of my lack of book study and that is all i want out of the game(my choice) but iv watched most every really good talent come along and every one improved with book study and then combining that with real tourn experience...hehe because in a real tourn there is a LOT more to winning than simply moving the checkers, attitude etc. I am still waiting for my prediction that with all the technonlogy available today that Tinsley's records eventually will fall with one of the young players coming or that will be coming up in the future.

[AKA]

Those are their FIRST tournament. I never said online players were one of the best in the world lol! I implied that they are underrated and disrespected.

Patrick, you say there is a way to cheat at Kurnik, but does this prove that other players do this? If there was a well known way to do it then I think it would already be public. You telling the whole world won't help.

[Alex_Moiseyev]

See you there at IL ty, Ted ... and all other folks ! Next time I would probably offer you to be editor of my book hehe It is impossible to say better and put things together. On my part - I can add here one thing only.

Online and real play are completely different games. They are different as chess and checkers, 10x10 and anglo-american style, 100 meters run and marathon. Yes, some players are doing very well online, and if we start to promote "online checkers" - run Quialfy ty's, World Championships etc - they can try here. Any match, online or in real life, can't prove anything - because theses are simply different styles.

If we push "100-meters" runner to participate in marathon, he would fail, indeed ... but this, again, doesn't prove anything.

We can create new rukes and play checkers after drinking 2 litrs of vodka and staying on the head (not foots) - this will be another sport ha-ha-ha

Regards,

Alex

[Ingo_Zachos]

...

We can create new rukes and play checkers after drinking 2 litrs of vodka and staying on the head (not foots) - this will be another sport ha-ha-ha

I have a nice drinking chess and checkers game from russia.
The pieces r vodka glasses.
The player that captures a piece must drink it at once

Now I know why the russians love these games

Greetinx from Dortmund, Germany

Ingo Zachos

P.S: I didn't know that you must stand on your head/hands when playing it, but it makes sense somehow )))))

[Patrick Parker]

2004 national in vegas.....thats all i am saying

[bazkitcase5]

"If the best 5 online players played a team match against 5 offline players in a combined match of blitz and untimed, I have my money on the online team to win more games."


assuming u mean 5 best online players vs 5 best offline players, then u were implying that they must be the best players in the world, unless ofcourse checkers is a game of luck all of a sudden?


"Those are their FIRST tournament. I never said online players were one of the best in the world lol! I implied that they are underrated and disrespected."


I do not know who u r referring to, but I do not underrate nor disrespect online players. I use to be an online only player, so I know first hand what they are capable of... If anything, due to tournament success in the past 5 years from tournament players, many offline players very much respect the skill level of online players. I still play online whenever I have time and the players who are interested in improving their game and taking it to the next level, I give them advice if I can (doesn't mean my advice is always right, but I try to help them anyway). I am always encouraging online players to attend real tournaments. Other than studying, its the best way to take your game to the next level.