World Championship Match : Ron King vs. Sergio Scarpetta

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Dennis Pawlek
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Re: World Championship Match : Ron King vs. Sergio Scarpetta

Post by Dennis Pawlek »

Congratulations to both Contestants to infuse GAYP some fresh blood. :-)

I think Sergio did a splending Job in analysing Ron King. Instead of trying him for his familiar lines who he perfectionated over centuries he went to take risk and try to get him into more unfimilar and complicated endings.

Sergio let Ron lose the most amount of games in a match for the GAYP titel since 2000 against Alex! (3-3-18)

This only once beaten in 1992 by DEO! (5-5-14)... Yes 20 years ago!

Sergio wonderful job!

Sergio: Will the games all be online or for sale later on?
Just the all of us together can improve checkers!
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Re: World Championship Match : Ron King vs. Sergio Scarpetta

Post by sergio »

Hello,
all games will be published as soon as possible in the internet. Let me create the right applet for them. Yesterday I was tired of working on my computer.
Thany you for your comments, I think it was a great event.

Best regards
Sergio Scarpetta
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Re: World Championship Match : Ron King vs. Sergio Scarpetta

Post by tommyc »

I think someone may have already mentioned it......................but for the sake of the game there has to be a better outcome than when the score is tied. The Champion should have NO such advantage of retaining because of a DRAWN match. THERE MUST BE AN ULTIMATELY be a result. What way this might be reached ?..............feel free to comment please.
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Re: World Championship Match : Ron King vs. Sergio Scarpetta

Post by Bernard Coll »

What is wrong with a drawn match? Titles have to be Won surely. It is unfair to suggest the title goes to an undefeated challenger. It goes without saying that the champion is also undefeated. In this case the champion also had to travel to the challengers' home venue.
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Re: World Championship Match : Ron King vs. Sergio Scarpetta

Post by Chexhero »

In a case of a tie, prize money should be split, but the current champion should hold the title. Checkers is not like other sports where you can always have a winner in my opinion. I think what could be an option would be to have a 2 game playoff after the last match. That way you are extending the event for some hours, but not for days. Another way to possibly limit drawn matches would be to have the GAYP championship extend the number of games played. Sergio showed us that GAYP does not just include a bunch of memorized lines, but rather there are lots of thing you can do to confuse the other player, even Ron King. Not saying there needs to be 40 games like 3 move, but maybe 30 games could be an option.
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Re: World Championship Match : Ron King vs. Sergio Scarpetta

Post by MostFamousDane »

In two of the last GAYP world matches the champion has retained his title only because of this big and arbitrary advantage. In effect the champion is given a point for free. In this last match he scored two points so his extra point is 33 % of his total points. In the previous match he scored one point because of this rule ie 100 % of his points was given to him. It is completely beyond me how people cannot see how grossly unfair this is.
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Re: World Championship Match : Ron King vs. Sergio Scarpetta

Post by Bernard Coll »

Gents, Chexhero and Sune and other gents, I presume the contract for last weeks enthralling match was worded in such a way that if the match was tied after 24 games, as per norm the holder of the title retained the title by virtue of not having lost the match? Possibly in future, contracts could be drawn up for other provisos? But as John (Acker) rightly pointed out earlier, time and logistics come into force.
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Re: World Championship Match : Ron King vs. Sergio Scarpetta

Post by Ingo_Zachos »

Hello Sune,

everybody agrees that the system does not give compelete equal chances.

But which other system would you suggest?

Two extra games would be not much.
If we make it 40 games, it would have the same merit as the 3-move title, which a majority currently would not like.
Something in between is thinkable, but it does not solve the basic problem of a tie after X games.

Besides, in a 40 match game a tie is also possible, see Moiseyev - King and Hellmann - Ryan and others.
We do not solve the basic problem what we should do in case of a tie.

Same with tie breaking rapid games. What if they end in a tie as well?
And a sudden death blitz with say 6 minutes for red/black and 4 for white and in case of a tie white being the seond player as they now do in chess requires a decision who gets the white pieces and in general favors the second player.
A toss of a coin would be more honest then that.

Plus longer matches and a tiebreaker play-off take additional efforts both in time and money.

My only suggestion wuld be to award the match win to that player who won more games with white, and in 3-move with red, as these are the weaker sides.
In this case Sergio Scarpetta would have won and Ron would have needed to win one of the last four games.

There is a clear reasoning to the current rule: the challenger must avoid a tie if he wants to win the title, so it is on him to stir things up.
In matches with a tiebreaker the number of draws is not less then in matches without, in contrast, as now both players want to secure the "penaly shoot-out" and they play even more conservative they tens to have more draws!

I think that this match definately showed that it is still possible to defeat the title holder, even if he plays conservative. Sergio had enough winning chances to do it and to defeat Ron, but he failed, while Ron took all his chances, which he badly needed this time.
Lubabalo in 2008 went nuts in his last game and took too much risks, while Sergio played it out,but looked for more variety in his openings then Lubabalo did. BTW: I think Lubabalo learnt a lot, as in San Remo 2011 he played with much more variety then before.

The problem, Sune, is not to declare something unfair, but to suggest a better alternative, in which we see hard fought games and a decision that is based on skill, and not on the luck of a tossed coin, like in a sudden death game.

So, what are you suggesting we should do instead?


Greetionx from finally sunny Dortmund, Germany

Ingo


PS: the rule that in case of a tie the title holder retains his title is not part of the match contract, but it is the WCDF byelaws.
http://wcdf.wz.cz/bylaws.htm

These byelaws were established years before the match started and both players knew them.
This time an Italian player, my friend Sergio Scarpetta suffered under the rule, but in Dublin 2010 Ron King suffered from a rule that was against him and at that time the Italian player, Michele Borghetti, was the lucky one.
The rules were never made to benefit any individual or to benefit the same country in all cases.

It can be replaced by the GA of the WCDF, but not in the match contract.

I am not sure about the price money, but I think this is a question of the match contract.
I am not sure if and how much price money now was at stake, and how it was divided.
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Re: World Championship Match : Ron King vs. Sergio Scarpetta

Post by sergio »

Hello everyone,
you can find my games in this website http://www.manghisi.it//Export/HTM/MATC ... RPETTA.htm.
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Re: World Championship Match : Ron King vs. Sergio Scarpetta

Post by Alex_Moiseyev »

In case of tie for title champion keeps title but challenger takes ALL money. :idea:

Respectfully,

Alex Moiseyev
I am playing checkers, not chess.
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Re: World Championship Match : Ron King vs. Sergio Scarpetta

Post by sergio »

Hello everyone,

It’s no use trying to change the rules. But I’m sure all rules must be observed by both players. No one should try to take advantage of this.

I only have three questions and I would appreciate clear answers from an expert.

The 3.4 WCDF rule says:
“In the course of play each player is required to record their own moves and those of their opponent, in the correct manner, move for move, as clearly and legibly as possible on the score sheet prescribed for the competition.”
What’s the penalty for the player who doesn’t want to write down the game?

The 3.7 WCDF rule says:
“ If a player wishes to verify their record of a game by comparing it with that of their opponent, they must inform the tournament controller and if allowed, do it in their own playing time.”
In which case and how many times could a player check his record of the game? Could he check it in his opponent's time? Could the referee give his record of the game all the time and ignore this rule without saying a word?

The 3.10 WCDF rule says:
“Any player who fails to hand in a complete signed copy of their games at the conclusion of a round shall receive zero points for that round. ”
How many times in the history of checkers has the rule been applied?

Of course Mr. King never observed these rules, so I wonder why they were written but never applied.

Best regards
Sergio Scarpetta
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Re: World Championship Match : Ron King vs. Sergio Scarpetta

Post by MostFamousDane »

Ingo_Zachos wrote:
The problem, Sune, is not to declare something unfair, but to suggest a better alternative, in which we see hard fought games and a decision that is based on skill, and not on the luck of a tossed coin, like in a sudden death game.

So, what are you suggesting we should do instead?

Well several proposals have been mentioned and all are superior to the current situation - even simply tossing a coin is better since it is still fair. The best thing to do is to reserve the last day for playing with decreasing timers. I also like Alex's idea about the prize money unfortunately prize money is so small that it would only be a band aid. Both proposals could be combined so that in the event that the score is still even after the last day challenger keeps money. This becomes less likely depending on how low a timer we want to accept
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Re: World Championship Match : Ron King vs. Sergio Scarpetta

Post by Alex_Moiseyev »

Sergio,

In 2008 in Beijing 1st WMSG Mustafa Durdyev requested from referee to force Ron King to record (recover) text of game at his (Ron) time expense. Ron did this but his flag failed and he lost game.

So ... you probably didn't ask referee to perform his duties ?

BTW. Referee in Beijing was Ian Caws.

All after all, mainly in Anglo-American checkers we don't follow much rules and regulations, but more often - historical traditions and respect.

Respectfully,

Alex
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Re: World Championship Match : Ron King vs. Sergio Scarpetta

Post by sergio »

Alex:
In 2008 in Beijing 1st WMSG Mustafa Durdyev requested from referee to force Ron King to record (recover) text of game at his (Ron) time expense. Ron did this but his flag failed and he lost game.
So ... you probably didn't ask referee to perform his duties ?



I’m a player and when I have a referee next to me I never ask him what he has to do or say. It’s not fair, and as a player in a match I shouldn’t remind anyone about the rules. I didn’t say a word, and although I am writing about this topic here, I would always have the same behavior. But I’m not ingenuous. These questions are only a reflection and merit right answers and clarification. If you can’t applied them to the letter, they must be changed.

You are spending your time to think what or not what would change in order to make the match more exciting and interesting. You are wasting your time because everything has worked for ages. While I only said that if you can’t applied the existing rules like happened to me, and with the same rigour as a soccer match, then it would be better cancel them or change them. If I had wanted to win the match in an unfair way, according to your rules I would have been enough to ask for a win at the end of any game in violation of these rules, independently of its result.

Best regards,
Sergio Scarpetta
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Re: World Championship Match : Ron King vs. Sergio Scarpetta

Post by Alex_Moiseyev »

Here is another story about rules ...

WCDF was created in 2003 and In 2005 when I played my match with Ron King we didn't have much rules at all. It was written commonly that each player has to make 24 moves in 1 hour. In game 25 (or 26) Ron made 23 moves and after I made my 24th move and pushed clocks his flag failed. After then Ron made his 24th move. I asked Referee Alan Millhone whether I won game on time. He consulted with Appeal Committee and responded ...

"It is written that players have to make 24 moves in 1 hour and Ron did this !"

WOW. I went to smoke :D

After this match and story, WCDF decided to write rules and this was done somewhere in 2007 - rules which were used in any future matches including last GAYP match.

During my match in 2005 I decided do not hurt myslef and complain. Anyway - he made 24 moves hahahahaha

Sergio,

my message about asking referee to perform duties was sarcastic indeed. We are on the same side of barricade and have same view on this. I totally agree with you. I played Russian Checkers and 10x10 checker more than 25 years in Soviet Union in very solid professional environment. Such story would never happen.

In difference with you, I am playing Anglo-American style of checkers 17 years and nothing can surprize me today :D :D :D

Alex
Last edited by Alex_Moiseyev on Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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