Why Checkers is NOT easier than Chess

General Discussion about the game of Checkers.
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Alex_Moiseyev
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Re: Why Checkers is NOT easier than Chess

Post by Alex_Moiseyev »

furrykef wrote:Chinook found what is called a "weak" solution: it has solved the game's starting position. In any game it plays starting from that position, it will never turn a winning position into a drawing or losing position
This is no an entirely accurate statement. Chinook didn't solve it at this level and Chinook still can miss a win - turn winning position into drawn.

The only thing Chinook can do - do not make a losing move: turn drawn position into losing.

Checkers community really appreciate an efforts of Chinook author and recognize his contribution to game.
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furrykef
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Re: Why Checkers is NOT easier than Chess

Post by furrykef »

Alex_Moiseyev wrote:This is no an entirely accurate statement. Chinook didn't solve it at this level and Chinook still can miss a win - turn winning position into drawn.
Then it isn't a proper weak solution. Since it was claimed to be a weak solution, it should never turn a winning position into a drawn position -- though, again, this only holds if Chinook was "behind the wheel" since the beginning of the game. If it takes over for another player who had wound up in a position Chinook hasn't seen before, anything can happen.

Can you back up this assertion?
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Re: Why Checkers is NOT easier than Chess

Post by neilwenberg »

Interesting points made here. However Dr. Webster, Ron King, and Ed Bruch have always been luckier than I at checkers. I have never even drawn any of these gentlemen let alone beat them. I cannot do any analyzation and every once in while I get lucky. Alex M. even let me have a couple of draws in tourney games! DR. Beckwith even let me have some wins in some of my tourney games with him.
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Re: Why Checkers is NOT easier than Chess

Post by George Hay »

I would rate 3rd Position in Checkers at about the same difficulty level as the King/Bishop/Knight Checkmate against a lone King in Chess. In Checkers, you have to avoid Payne's Draw, and in Chess you have to avoid Stalemate....In both cases the difficulty level is very difficult!
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Alex_Moiseyev
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Re: Why Checkers is NOT easier than Chess

Post by Alex_Moiseyev »

furrykef wrote:Then it isn't a proper weak solution. ... Can you back up this assertion?
Chinook team scientifically proved that GAYP is a drawn style. That's it. All other conversations about "strong-weak" solutions are only speculations. Chinook author never claimed they solved checkers, yellow media did ! :D

There is no problem to build such solution for chess - it is only matter of time and money. Maybe some day it will be done.
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Re: Why Checkers is NOT easier than Chess

Post by Chexhero »

Alex, to be fair, Jonathon Schaeffer claimed in an interview, which you can find on his website, that checkers has been solved, not just GAYP. Whether it actually is solved or not is another story. There is a proof posted on the site, but it may take about 1000 hours or more to look through.
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Re: Why Checkers is NOT easier than Chess

Post by Alex_Moiseyev »

Chexhero wrote:it may take about 1000 hours or more to look through.
It took less than 5 minutes for me. For red they picked first move 9-13 and proved it's drawn. For white they picked all 7 red moves and proved that white can drew against all of them. This is scientific prove :D I am not sure how deeper we solve the game.

AM
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Re: Why Checkers is NOT easier than Chess

Post by furrykef »

Alex_Moiseyev wrote:Chinook team scientifically proved that GAYP is a drawn style. That's it. All other conversations about "strong-weak" solutions are only speculations. Chinook author never claimed they solved checkers, yellow media did ! :D
Actually, yes, they did. "This paper announces that checkers is now solved: Perfect play by both sides leads to a draw. ... For weakly solved games, both the result and a strategy for achieving it from the start of the game are known [e.g., in Go Moku the first player wins and a program can demonstrate the win]. ... With this paper, we announce that checkers has been weakly solved." That's straight from Schaeffer and his team.

You might be thinking, "OK, so they proved that the starting position is a draw, but that doesn't mean the program will never turn a winning position into a drawn position." Actually, it does, I think. It says "with perfect play on both sides" -- and part of perfect play is punishing your opponent's mistakes. There's no way to tell that a move is a mistake without computing the opponent's forced win.
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Re: Why Checkers is NOT easier than Chess

Post by Alex_Moiseyev »

Here is an article in Spectrum. Can you find in this article any sentence which proves Chinook "perfect play" ... rather then prove a drawn status of initial position ?

http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/soft ... ers-solved

Here is the best quote I find: to prove that checkers, played perfectly, results in a draw. And this is the only thing which was proved scientifically.

As practical player I can buy this: Play perfectly and you always be OK ! That's what I am struggling to do for years as human :D
Last edited by Alex_Moiseyev on Wed May 29, 2013 9:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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furrykef
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Re: Why Checkers is NOT easier than Chess

Post by furrykef »

Alex_Moiseyev wrote:Here is an article in Spectrum. Can you find in this article any sentence which proves Chinook "perfect play" ... rather then prove a drawn status of initial position ?
Re-read my last post. I showed why I think these two statements are equivalent.
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Re: Why Checkers is NOT easier than Chess

Post by nboatman »

Hello Kef,

I'm glad to see that you're perusing our message board. You raise some interesting points in your posts, particularly the one about measuring difficulty using the probability of making a good move. Unfortunately, I know far too little about chess to make any comparison between chess and checkers along these lines. As a (continually failing) perfectionist, I think of the difficulty of a game in terms of how difficult it is to play perfectly, and I am convinced that neither chess nor checkers can be perfected by a human. So, using this very crude measure, chess and checkers would be called equally difficult. But, as you pointed out, there are many other, perhaps more useful, measures of difficulty.

Now, to your point about Chinook's weak solution. Yes, Chinook weakly solved checkers, meaning that the program determined that checkers is a draw from its standard starting position, and moreover the program will always achieve at least a draw. However, this does not mean Chinook will play perfectly. Chinook may turn a winning position into a drawn position (though, as you pointed out, perfect play will not turn a win into a draw). Chinook does not need to know the outcome for each position in its search; in many cases, an inequality is good enough for the determination of its weak solution. For instance, if you browse Chinook's game tree (http://chinook.cs.ualberta.ca/users/chinook/), you will notice that Chinook has not determined whether or not 11-15 22-17 is a draw or a black win. It does not matter for the purposes of a weak solution: Chinook knows enough - that 11-15 22-17 is not a white win and that white has a drawing response to 11-15.
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Re: Why Checkers is NOT easier than Chess

Post by furrykef »

nboatman wrote:For instance, if you browse Chinook's game tree (http://chinook.cs.ualberta.ca/users/chinook/), you will notice that Chinook has not determined whether or not 11-15 22-17 is a draw or a black win. It does not matter for the purposes of a weak solution: Chinook knows enough - that 11-15 22-17 is not a white win and that white has a drawing response to 11-15.
Eep! You're quite right, sir. Now I'm rather embarrassed since I've been wrong about this all along. I thought for sure I had it right!

OK, that sets the record straight. Chinook can never lose, but it can possibly fail to spot a win.
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Alex_Moiseyev
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Re: Why Checkers is NOT easier than Chess

Post by Alex_Moiseyev »

furrykef wrote:You're quite right, sir.... I've been wrong about this all along
WOW ! I want you to be my buddy. So miserable number of people are able to write this and confirm they were wrong in something. :D

Send me PM

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Alex_Moiseyev
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Re: Why Checkers is NOT easier than Chess

Post by Alex_Moiseyev »

It is quite impossible to solve game fully - cover all positions from 24 pieces ending database :D However, I know - Chinook continue working on 2-moves right now which covers 47 openings. This can be done in our life time if University money for this project not expire :D
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Re: Why Checkers is NOT easier than Chess

Post by Chexhero »

So in conclusion we can say that Chinook mathmatically solved that checkers is a draw from the starting point of the game. In addition, it can never lose a game. However, that is not the same as saying Chinook perfected checkers or even came close to perfecting checkers. That is where the media screws up.
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