GAYP is more attractive to new and inexperienced players.

[Roberto L Ernest]

GAYP is more attractive than balloting the openings to new and inexperienced players. The ACF might succeed in attracting more of them to its tourneys if it were possible for a player to participate without being forced to use the ballot. This could be done by making the lowest division of all ACF tournaments GAYP. Or it could be done by having players register as GAYP or Three-Move and allowing the former to play all their games without the ballot.

The logic of this should be readily apparent to most people. It is only when a player becomes fairly strong that balloting the openings begins to make any sense at all. A weaker player has very limited knowledge of the openings and wants to try out the few lines that he or she does know. They do not want to study an opening and have to wait five years until it is balloted at a tournament.

Also, some players have a very strong preference for GAYP. We play other games where we have the freedom of choosing our openings and want to enjoy the same privilege at Checkers, too. We play GAYP on the Internet and would like to be able to do so regularly at ACF tournaments. We are tired of being told, "Try it, you'll like it." Our response is, "No, we don't like it!"

Requiring the ballot at most ACF tournament amounts to the organization putting all of its eggs in one basket. Surely this cannot be a winning strategy.

[Bob Murr]

The national tournament is GAYP in odd numbered years. I think that it would be a good idea to have a novice division that would play GAYP as a starting point for new players to "get their feet wet" so to speak. It has been suggested at times in the past that the Minors play GAYP but has not found much favor. If one wishes to be a Master or Grand Master, he must be proficient at 3 move as well as GAYP. I do believe that many newcomers who feel that they are pretty good checker players are intimidated by the prospect of having to learn 3 move pp to even be able to give most of the other players decent opposition.

[matthewkooshad]

Maybe there are too many players in the minor division, and some of them feel they are ready for the major division. I suggest a minors A division and a minors B division. So, that there is a place for the lower level players who want to play gayp. I think this would increase number of players for the tournament, obviously.

[AKA]

Maybe there are too many players in the minor division, and some of them feel they are ready for the major division. I suggest a minors A division and a minors B division. So, that there is a place for the lower level players who want to play gayp. I think this would increase number of players for the tournament, obviously.

Yes we all know why you think a minors B division is a good idea

[Patrick Parker]

there is a good sometimes ...to not be nice ....good job igor
purpose of 3move is to increase the chance of new ground
if a player really wants to improve i think crossboard is the best place to do it....
besides in minors....how many people play anything remotely normal gayp stuff anyway?

[Gene Lindsay]

Guys, take it from someone who came up through the ranks. You don't have to know any pp to do well in minors, except in GAYP. Most minor players know a little PP on a few GAYP openings, but when they draw a 3-move opening they are crossboard 95% of the time. I finished 5th in the minors in the 1984 National 3-move ty not knowing hardly any pp. All I had studied then was problems from a problem book I had found at a bookstore. I then bought Basic Checkers and moved on up. The first ty I went to was the 1981 TN Open, we played 4 game rounds winner take all and I had never seen a 3-move deck. I won several games and lost even more. I drew 3 rounds and lost 3 rounds. I finished 2nd in the minors in 1982( after playing regular at Ramsey's farm market here in town where several ty Checker players played twice a week) I didn't find the problem book until a couple of months after the 1982 ty. So I know from experience you don't have to know pp to play in the Minors.

Gene Lindsay

[Roberto L Ernest]

I notice that everyone is ignoring the last part of my posted message. Some of us players simply do not like balloting the openings and will not play the game that way. We want to play openings of our own choosing and do not need the ballot to choose first moves other than 11-15. Since most tournaments are rigidly three-move-ballot, that leaves us out.

I placed my emphasis on novices and inexperienced players because, not being in the Masters or Majors categories myself, I cannot try to speak for players at that level. However, I do feel that studying certain openings and then choosing to play them in serious competition is an essential part of learning the game. I cannot speculate on what follows.

The point of my original message was that the culture of the ACF is unnecessarily rigid and that this is tending to exclude people. It is a club of Checker players who have come to feel comfortable with the three-move restriction and where other kinds of players are not made to feel comfortable. If three-move is truly a natural and healthy part of the game, it will certainly flourish in a more open and flexible environment.

[Patrick Parker]

i am new to checker tournaments really and
i am not sure that i like gayp over 3 move

however i would say that i prefer to play 3 move against someone who is better than me than to play gayp against them
because
if say i am playing in a tournament and its one division
i wouldnt feel more comfortable playing againts someone who has been playing gayp for 40 years .....
but we might draw a 3 mover than neither of us know nothing about
i would rather that than play old 14th against someone who knows 59 variations of it

but if you are talking about say nationals where there are lots of people
then that tournament changes out which style it plays every year and i think thats fair and shouldnt change

[liam stephens]

Roberto L Ernest said:

Also, some players have a very strong preference for GAYP. We play other games where we have the freedom of choosing our openings and want to enjoy the same privilege at Checkers, too. We play GAYP on the Internet and would like to be able to do so regularly at ACF tournaments. We are tired of being told, "Try it, you'll like it." Our response is, "No, we don't like it!"

Well said Roberto. Certainly beginners or novices should not have
the 3 move ballot foisted upon them. Here is what the renowned
Derek Oldbury had to say on the matter:

"When an opening is balloted......certain positional demands come into force straight away, committing the player in a certain direction so that the matter of How shall I develop this game? is not one of choice and is replaced by What essential moves must I make, or lose? While all this may be fine as a means of developing analytical skill and a fair measure of versatility in handling any given type of opening formation, it is virtually death to the possibly young and promising player who has yet to find his own identity, as it were, in terms of playing style.......In contrast unrestricted play gives the freedom essential to develop in any direction one chooses......Vastly improved positional judgement is one of the offshoots of decision making of this sort and is
a natural part of the student player's training."

[chipschap]

I really, really hope some time to be able to make it to a checker tournament (time is always my obstacle). But given where I am in the scheme of things (scrub, woodpusher, duffer) I would not even dare attempt anything but GAYP. I would be far too intimidated to play 3-move ballot. It is just too specialized and, frankly, too hard for the average. We're not all Marvin J. Mavin.

[Roberto L Ernest]

Thank-you Liam Stephens and Chipschap for your support. It is good to know that someone else in the organization shares some of my thinking on this subject.

I wish there were more supportive thinking with respect to GAYP out there, more willingness to open up a bit for players who do not like the ballot for whatever reason. So long as most ACF tourneys are strictly three-move ballot, only players who like that style will join the organization and participate actively in it. Others will never join or, if they do join in a few cases, they will remain pretty much inactive.

I made a suggestion a while back that participants in ACF tournaments register either as three-move or as freestyle players. The freestyle players would play all their games GAYP. Two three-move players meeting over the board would ballot the opening, just as they do currently. A freestyle and a three-move player meeting over the board would play GAYP.

I think this arrangement would bring about maximum player satisfaction all around and would be a reasonable compromise. Beginners and other GAYP'ers would be happy because they would not have to deal with the ballot. Those that prefer the ballot, however, would be able to play each other the way they want to. And if the ballot continued to be preferred by most strong players, then most games played at that level would continue to be balloted.

[Patrick Parker]

flaw in the idea
is that u give the gayp the game he wants but would deny the 3mover
playing 4 games 2 games gayp and 2 games 3move
would be more fair
not just letting the gayp person play that because its more their style
if that were the case i would never play 3move at any tournament with that option and walk away with a ton of draws a few wins and even less in the loss column
also how does one prepare for such a tournament? if hes a 3mover double study? or study gayp because that would be forced if opponent chose it or study if because u can force anyone to play what u want.

i think the openings are part of the game alot of people like the most ....whether they are gayp or 3move.....

an idea is to host a gayp tournament.....or if i host one will u come?

[matthewkooshad]

Is there an ACF officer that makes decisions on this? I wonder ACF officials thoughts on this.

[Palomino]

I think most tournaments are organized by state associations or local groups. I believe, except for the national and district tournaments, the ACF has no say in the style of play, entry fees and other such things.

The 2004 Indiana State/6th District Tournament (2 days, Sat. & Sun.) also included a 1 day GAYP tournament on sat., if I remember correctly only 2 players showed up for the GAYP tournament.

Regards, "Pal" Bucker

[Alex_Moiseyev]

if I remember correctly only 2 players showed up for the GAYP tournament.

It is true, that number of "only GAYP players" is extremely low. I can call two GAYP tournaments where I participated and which was played in parallel to 3-moves tournaments.

1. USA Open GAYP tournament 2004, which was played "back-to-back" to 3 move tournament in Las Vegas. The total number of players was seriously reduced after 1st week, and there were not enough players for 3 Divisions. In Matser Division it was only Ron King from Barbados, the GAYP World Champion, who came to the second week. And there were only 4-5 players players in Major Division who came to play 2nd week only in GAYP event. Where is miriad of GAYP lovers which we heard here ?

2. Perhaps I am unlucky guy. My second experience with GAYP events was New York tournament in 2005 (many thanks to Francisco). What we can see ? The same picture - number of players in GAYP event reduced, and there were only 2 or 3 extra players who came to play on GAYP event only.

So ... in conclusion we should say - we are talking about extremely small group of beginner players, who wants to play GAYP only.

In my personal opinion GAYP is very restricted game, limited for imagination. Not too much added to the theory of this game (GAYP) in the last 100 years, and most lines are known and well discovered. It is not a big surprise, that this style is a bit popular among beginner level players, who yet doesn't have good knowedlges yet in either - 3 move or GAYP.

ACF is responsible for the National tournaments only, and here we have them even - every year we have 3 move National event, and other 2 years - GAYP. ACF doesn't have any control or authority on State and local events. If there are GAYP fans there - they have to contact with District managers and directors/organisers of State ty's

Derek Oldbury was certainly wrong in statement quoted here in above, because in GAYP knoweldges of published play are important as well as in 3-move style. And this "limitation and restriction" of GAYP may only disturb new players who is looking for competition and challenge

Respecrfully,

Alex Moiseyev