THE FORGOTTEN GRANDMASTERS

[tommyc]

Anyone who thinks that all you need is a good program and you will be a champion mail player is way off the mark.

Mail players are a special breed, if it were that easy everyone would be a world champion.

Give the Mail Grandmasters their due title of MGM ,lets not forget them.

[Alan Millhone]

Hello Tommy:

I have been reading all the postings on this topic. I enjoy my ID books and know that mail players are on the 'cutting edge' on lines of play they have 'hammered out' and use on most opernings. A lot of the current openings we would not have if it had not been for the mail players. I have always had a lot of respect for players by mail and all their hard work. I might also add the the work that Mr. Earle Hangen has done for mail play and the players is legendary. I am agreeable to having the title MGM for mail players but am not experienced enough in that area to serve on a selection committee:-)

Sincerely:
Alan Millhone, President
American Checker Federation
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Checkers -------- " THE MENTAL SPORT ALTERNATIVE TO VIDEO GAMES "

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[tommyc]

Thanks Alan for putting your good offices to good use with your words of encouragement and common sense approach.

I wont thank Alex for the "cooks " he referred to as they gave me a torrid time and i can tell you it wasnt any programme that resolved the draw for me.Sometimes its takes more when your living on a knife-edge,as Mail play demands, in a simultaneous forty game contest where the loser "takes nothing".

[mday]

Anyone who thinks that all you need is a good program and you will be a champion mail player is way off the mark.

Mail players are a special breed, if it were that easy everyone would be a world champion.

Give the Mail Grandmasters their due title of MGM ,lets not forget them.

I never implied that mail-play players ONLY use programs and nothing else - but a mail-play world champion of today wouldn't survive without one.

[mday]

Thanks Alan for putting your good offices to good use with your words of encouragement and common sense approach.

I wont thank Alex for the "cooks " he referred to as they gave me a torrid time and i can tell you it wasnt any programme that resolved the draw for me.Sometimes its takes more when your living on a knife-edge,as Mail play demands, in a simultaneous forty game contest where the loser "takes nothing".

You did use computer aid to find the drawing line.


Mail play players put some of their own moves/lines into the program to ''test it out''

[Alex_Moiseyev]

Plz give us time to work things out, as Rome was not built on one day.

OK, Ingo, I'll give you some time. Do you need the same time Rome was built or it can be done faster ?

I am not an expert indeed in burocracy, but I think it's a quite easy subject - just make decision: YES or NO. Mail players don't have a rating involve, so - it shouldn't cause any extra work and time for Committee.

In addition, think about another option - awarding by GM titles our best programs. So far only Chinook played in human events in 1990's, but I don't think it's a case. I beleive we know all our best programs very well, who can be awarded by GM title: (in alphabetical order )

Cake
Chinook
KingsRow
Nemesis
WCC

Sincerely,

Alex Moiseyev

[Patrick Parker]

if the programmer agreed would a program be allowed to enter a tournament?

[Alex_Moiseyev]

if the programmer agreed would a program be allowed to enter a tournament?

In ACF - yes, in EDA - no. EDA decided do not allow programs in human events in the beginning of 1990's.

Personally I don't see any problems if WCC or KingsRow decide to attend a National tourney, Master Division. There might be some issue here with price and title, but this can be resolve timely.

Yet, since 1996 when Chinook played last time in USA National, none of programmers indicated intention and interest to do so.

Personally - I would not feel comfortable playing against program with 10pc database and huge and accurate opening book, but I know - all my other human competitors will be under the same pressure and our chances are even.

Allowing programs to play in human events is very attractive and challenging for everyone ! So far Chinook was the only program who won an ACF National. It would be interesting to see - if other program can accomplish this goal.

Alex

[Lindus Edwards]

Alex, You omitted to mention Wyllie Pro in your list of GM titles in respect of computer programs. You know the one I mean - the one that beat you soundly a few years ago

[Alex_Moiseyev]

You omitted to mention Wyllie Pro

Lindus, you are absolutely right ! Thanks for fixing my error Wyllie Pro certainly must added to this list and it will be up to Commitee to review all nominees.

I still remember very well this unforgetable time when I played match vs Wyllie. It helped me to find my weaknesses, fill out the gaps in knoweldges and improve.

Probably today if I play this match again vs Wyllie Pro versus 2002 the score would be more narrow ... but who knows.

Alex

[tommyc]

In my opinion its the programmer that makes any particular prog what it is, but consider this where the programmer gets the infomation to insert into it??

Simple answer from Mail players in most part who have worked endlessly on building the line . Consider over the last 10 yrs of the tremendous work put into opening up the unplayable openings (The Star ship Enterprise and many others)that have now been included in the deck for regular Ty play.

Do you think the draw lines were thought up my some magic formula ??? nah, to put it in plain english this play was discovered by committed Mail players (and the occasional master)thru night and day and thick and thin then passed on to programmers for insertion in a program. I have to say they were open to correction as any line is and some have been improved and others may be improved again.

While many programmers have done sterling work in this field and are to be commended, and appreciated ,i personally dont know of anyone of them who won a Mail Ty.

Maybe its a chicken and egg thing and my opinion is that Mail players are both the chicken and the egg, they are the Grandmasters/

[Alex_Moiseyev]

The point of the GM title, in any game, is to recognize talent, stamina, creativity, and memory above and beyond one's peers.

John, I disagree with you on this matter. Titles are committed to performance and ratings. Thats all. Even if someone who is not talented but achive the norm, he/she must be awarded. If programs plays in the human events and care rating 2500+, title must be given. It is not a "human title"

Even if celler phone has checkers loaded into it as game, and it plays at the certain level - we can award celler phone by title ! I don't see any psycholgical bareers here.

Forget about creativity or talent, programs can play well w/o them !

Alex

[ae_ted]

I have to agree with John on this. Programs have no place in regular tourns.
At the nats as publicity, yes maby
certainly everyone appreciates the fact the programer's efforts; and how they and net play have brougt on many very talented players in recent years, but in a HUMAN event, they have not place except to judge winners in a referee call on a match.

[Patrick Parker]

i think mostly this is fear of being slaughtered by a program.............

however i do not think anything more than a 8pc database should be allowed in human competition ......otherwise its pointless...more than

but i was actually thinking of the program not playing in the masters
maybe a 6pc database and a small opening book
set it maybe 10 seconds a move and allowed to play in a lower division besides the masters
......as far as prize and title.........let the human that places the highest have it....but let the program play just to see how well it does

[liam stephens]

Hi John, you have made several valid points.
The ratings and associated titles should be reserved for human crossboard ability.
One does not award a motor car an Olympic title, simply because it could outspeed an athelete. ( although I recall that Jesse Owens raced against horses after the 1936 Olympics, when there were no humans able to compete with him) Those who contribute to Draughts/Checkers by the service(s) they provide to the game, should certainly be valued and recognised, but by a different title to those used for ratings. Perhaps we should have an "Order of the Garter" or "Knights Templar" award for "Services to the Game".
(I would include the contributions of mail players in those categories)
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Quote "Even if someone who is not talented, but achieve the norm"

A chicken and egg situation.

Surely, anyone who achieves the norm must have a modicum of talent.