How Should GoldToken Take Checkers to The Next Level?

[Pedro Saavedra]

Hey Tommy, please read my two above posts. Real time games = head to head gaming. It is entirely possible! Shh....I would explain more, but GoldToken has a huge surprize coming in the next few months that will tickle the socks off your checkers! ~~Mary

I want to go on record saying that I hope you do not jeopardize the turn-based character of Gold Token. Unlike Tommy, I do not like head-to-head and prefer turn-based. I am also worried as to whether head to head will clash with my office firewall (which currently blocks live gaming sites, but not turn-based).

[Pedro Saavedra]

Gold Token / ACF
...so maybe 3 ratings?? (at least 3??):

Again, I am most unenthusiastic. I do not know my rating at Gold Token and do not want to know. The thing that turned me off most about organized chess was the ratings. People would get asked what their rating was before they were asked their name. And I saw youngsters trying to out-tire an old timer in the last round with only rating points at stake, when the old timer clearly would have preferred to draw and go home.

I recognize that ratings are useful for Swiss System Tournaments or to position players in OTB team matches. But there is no need in turn-based tournaments which are round robins or in ladders. That is one of the appeals It's Your Turn has for me (in spite of the turn-off their unreliability offers -- they are down again).

It is a losing battle in most places in that everybody seems to want a rating they can classify themselves by. Well, I'm a veteran chess player (past president of the Virginia Chess Federation) who has come to detest ratings. I love playing chess and checkers, but would rather never see my name in any rating list. And I prefer to take one game at a time, disregarding the rating of my opponent, unless I have heard of him, in which case I am more interested in his games than in his rating.


Pedro Saavedra
Guanarteme in GT
vatecubano in IYT

[Patrick Parker]

then play non rated games

[Pedro Saavedra]

...if you'd like a game i'm Danno12 at all those sites....*you can select a non-rated game if you'd like...etc

I do not avoid rated games, I just pay no attention to ratings. And in IYT ratings are irrelevant to tournament pairings.

As for computers, I would like to see a venue for computer-assisted checkers. I for one like to study openings with the computer, and find I have to avoid openings with ongoing games to abide by the standards. So if I am trying to find lines on the octopus using a computer and it comes up in a game, I essentially have to wait until the game ends (but I still use any notes I had before it came up). In a sense I have had to invent rules to decide what is OK and what is not. That is not new to computers. In the 1970s I often engaged in analysis with friends, and we at times hit lines where I had a correspondence game (chess or checkers) going. I had to come up with rules that said I could watch others discuss the opening, but could not request that it be discussed. I wish somebody would address all these ethical conundrums, but I have never seen them addressed.

In addition, I think the use of the computer is a skill onto itself. I would like to see Human-computer teams playing.

[Pedro Saavedra]

...what i meant by cheating is when you let the computer/database make the moves for you...
Danno12

Yes, but the problem is that if you play turn-based or correspondence any time is "during" a tournament. It is clear that letting the computer make every move for you is a no-no. But if you are playing the octopus, can you ethically study the octopus using the computer?

Here is an example. Player X makes his move without the computer. Now he logs off the server and proceeds to analyze the position, not knowing what the opponent's move will be (let us assume there is more than one forced move). At no time has he let the computer dictate his immediate move, but this would still be questionable.

Or say he expects to fall in a tricky position he fell into some games earlier. The position is several moves away. Can he now study it, justifying it as simply analyzing an earlier game?

[P.R.]

Play at kurnik

[P.R.]

prog

[Pedro Saavedra]

??...some turn-based gamesites (and players) might consider using a computer (or books, etc.) as an "aid to study??" as being ethical???...but certainly not to make the move for you!!...in a real-time online internet tournament no computer/database use should be allowed in any way...i have nothing against these wonderful computer programs as aids to study...they are great...but a real-time online tournament should have the same rules as actual OTB tournaments!....imho...
Danno12

I agree with a real time tournament. I was speaking of a turn-based tournament. At one point some correspondence tournaments allowed computers. And todays rules are ambiguous because you may be using the computer to study an opening and then get the opening at a tournament. So you may need to stop lest you reach a position which you are studying.

I do not play real time because I like to pull out the literature and examine it during play, and that is not possible (or ethical, in my view) in real time. I also cannot sit still for long due to arthritis and tend to drowse, so turn-based is ideal for me.

[Pedro Saavedra]

yes, i like turn-based games...but i would really
like to see how the on-line ACF tournaments will
turn out...i would think a lot of top players would
play??!...most players can't make it to the ACF
OTB tournaments...etc...i hope it happens soon!...
Danno12

Would you prohibit the use of books or notes in real time tournaments? How would it be enforced? If one were serious about high level real time Internet-based tournaments that simulated OTB conditions, I see only one way. The playing venue would have to be clubs where Internet access is set up and players bring laptops and can be monitored. That would save travel and would allow monitoring. Otherwise, there is no way to avoid cheating.

[BillyBoy]

I think anytime there is a online tournament or any online play there will be people using programs to move for them. There is a site called Kurnik it will grey the name if you click off the main screen. That is really so far the best site at coming close to dealing with the problem. The bad news is people go as far as using a laptop to have the program on to continue to cheat without greying the name. So kurnik of all the sites now is mostly well known for cheaters. This became a cheaters best dream cause he could get full credit and people will never doubt this person for the fact the name dont change color. It's really sad in a way cause you will have good players that get mistaken for programs. But for the most part your online tournaments and online game play is about 50/50 with reall skill and machine. Why is it done is what alot of people wonder. Well its certainly not fun knowing you will win all your games all the time and dont really require thought in it. I only assume its to say hey everyone look at me look what I can do. Anyways thats my thoughts. Billy

[Pedro Saavedra]

I think anytime there is a online tournament or any online play there will be people using programs to move for them.

But nobody has addressed the fact that if we try to have live online tournaments, the rules for consulting books would still be unenforceable. If one tried to emulate OTB play, that is.

[BillyBoy]

The point is the main bottom line is why even bother at all. You will never know if your being cheated or not. Nobody will really know 100 percent if its all fair play online. But there is 2 ways of looking at it. The first is the fact it could discourage people from tournament play. If there playing alot of programs they could think wow I dont really belong in a tournament. And then again a online tournament may bring more people in. My personal outlook on it is simple. Little Eddie will love to fire up Uncle Pete's program and tear into Alex and think he is the world champ. It will certainly build up self esteem. Billy

[Mary Strazicich]

I want to go on record saying that I hope you do not jeopardize the turn-based character of Gold Token. Unlike Tommy, I do not like head-to-head and prefer turn-based. I am also worried as to whether head to head will clash with my office firewall (which currently blocks live gaming sites, but not turn-based).

No worries there Pedro, GoldToken will always have turn based games available. Whats more, if we do get head to head gaming set up, I assure you, it will be far different than anything any other site offers. I don't want to let the cat out of the bag, but can say we have some cool tricks up our sleeves! And such a feature would only be offered to paying members as the last thing we want is something like yahoo games or worse...I shudder at the thought!

...so maybe 3 ratings?? (at least 3??):
Gold Token: --Gold Token ratings as they are now...
iACF: --ACF ratings for internet tournaments played at Gold Token...
ACF: --ACF ratings for OTB as they are now...
...most folks can't make it to ACF tournaments so no doubt ACF internet tournaments at Gold Token will be popular!...
...it would be nice to know who-is-who...a list somewhere for Gold Token/ACF members showing: Real Name/Gold Token Name/Ratings
...(i am playing several ACF members at Gold Token and i have no idea how they rate nationally, etc...it would be nice to know who i am up against!!)....
...since Gold Token is now the official gamesite of the ACF maybe there should be a topic here in the ACF Forum for Gold Token/ACF items...

Some great ideas Danno12! Because it is online, I don't think GoldToken's ratings will be the same as ACF ratings (however, our rating system has been approved by the ACF), but if we do head to head gaming, it will have to have its own rating, yes. As more ACF members play at GoldToken, you will be able to weight yourself against them and how they stand up online. Players play differently online vs in person. A great in person player might be beatable online and vise versa. The pressure is completely different. And now that GoldToken offers non rated games, it will open up a whole new avenue for players to play without any pressure.

I think anytime there is a online tournament or any online play there will be people using programs to move for them. There is a site called Kurnik it will grey the name if you click off the main screen.

Cheating. It is a topic in itself. I love the idea of greying or dimming a page if someone leaves a board and believe we can implement something along these lines.

I hope I am not opening a can of worms with the following points, but do believe it needs to be discussed from the comments in this thread.

It was best said by a well known player at GoldToken
"I fail to see what the benefit of a high rating would be to anyone who goes to such great lengths to cheat. In my book anyone who could find real value in a bogus high rating has much deeper and more disturbing personal issues to deal with than their "status" in our rather small niche of the internet. Such pathetic and meaningless attempts at self-validation are indicative of very weak character, a mind that is limited to the deviousness necessary to play well but blind to the beauty of the game, and an exceptionally low-class soul." --chessnut64

Cheating is simply not tolerated at GoldToken. That is part of the beauty of not being such a big site that players can get lost in the shuffle or falsely manufacture a rating.

Once cheating has been verified, the offending player is emailed a detailed letter of explanation and their account closed. But at the same time, players can't just point a finger accusing someone of cheating either, and think something will happen with just their word. We refuse to act unjustly on just an accusation. Nor do we allow players to point fingers on the forums in an effort at making someone look bad. There have been players who begrudged an honest win to someone and their sole goal for the next week/month was to defame the winner...players have found such behavior is considered just as bad as cheating at GoldToken. We do however, closely look into all claims and carefully consider the evidence, taking any necessary action if cheating is found. And we have a team of longtime trusted players available at GoldToken that unbiasedly check games against computer engines when someone is suspected of cheating.

From GoldTokens policy regarding cheating:

What constitutes cheating?
Very loosely, we will say that cheating involves dishonestly representing your ability in a game. Specific forms of cheating include, but are not limited to:

* Using more than one nick name on this site in order to manipulate the ratings
* Resigning or drawing games to give someone else an unwarranted win or move up to the next level
* Using a computer program to dictate moves for you
* Deliberately prolonging tournament, ladder and club challenge games in an effort to discourage, out wait, disrupt or even anger your opponent enough to resign
* Having someone else decide your moves for you or playing your games

What is acceptable?
Since this site is best classified as "correspondence gaming," you are allowed to consult with books, and databases to evaluate your position and decide upon your best move. Using a computer gaming "engine" for games in progress is strictly prohibited. After the game is over, however, you can feel free to use the assistance of a computer to analyze the game play. Nothing is acceptable by deliberately delaying games. If you don't have time to play your current tournament, ladder or club games, then you don't have time to be accepting new tournaments or friendly games.

Note: We have yet to decide exactly just how we will apply consulting with tools to head to head games, and I am open to your ideas and discussion on this topic. It would seem that doing so during a game would be out of line. ~~Mary

How do you view the difference between a database and a computer engine/program?
Regarding the use of a database to play: Whether you use a book or a computerized database, there is little difference, except the computerized database is likely to be much faster, very much more complete, and in general more accurate. However in principle it is the same thing: you are looking something up, not having an evaluation calculated based on a given position.

So we distinguish the difference between the use of computer engines --- a no-no for sure --- and the use of computer databases --- perfectly fair game which in essence uses the computer as a passive lookup device, not as an active calculator or evaluator. And any online database (again, consulted in a passive lookup fashion) is fair game and fair play.


How do you catch the cheaters?
To be honest, we don't have enough time to examine every move in every game on this site. Much of the gaming here is done on the honor system. So if you feel compelled to stoop to cheating in order to give others a false sense of what a bright and wonderful individual you are, chances are that you may not get caught. However, if your cheating ends up being successful enough to place you near the top of one of the best players lists, your games may suddenly come under more intense scrutiny. It is easy to determine if you play daily with the exception of your tournament, ladder or club games, even delaying such games while taking on new ones. All the more reason not to do it.


In other words, ineffective cheating is unlikely to be caught, but then, if it is ineffective, why bother? And effective cheating is more likely to be caught, resulting in your rating being dropped, banned from playing tournaments, your membership forfeit or your account being summarily dismissed from this site, so again, why bother? But if you want to take the risk, consider yourself warned.

~~Mary

[BillyBoy]

Could not delete

[BillyBoy]

Could not delete my post so at least I will change it so my lag would not create the same thing a million times.